Design so far

Hi All,

I have added below a few Jpeg images of how the design is coming along, just to wet your appetite. There's a front shot, a rear shot and one of the tender with the brake assembly attached. Currently the engine is being designed as 'The Showmans' version this is due to the way 3D modelling works. It is easier for us to complete the majority of the Showmans design, duplicate the files and then alter the solids that are appropriate to the Road Loco only. At this stage only the smoke box assembly and the boiler are different.

For your information the engine has 18" Front Wheels (to the rim), 14 spokes per Front Wheel, 16" Con Rods and 26" diameter Rear Wheels. Steve is currently considering altering the gearing slightly to improve it's top speed. This should prove an advantage to those of you who enjoy taking part in the road runs.

We now have 9 confirmed orders with another one potentially in the pipeline. A mailshot of over 1000 people has also gone out over the last 3 days with a further 3 people waiting for this to arrive before commiting. A September/October start is still on target.

All the best

Dean & Steve.

Dear DCC Builders,

Here is a jpeg of the latest design. A few things still to do but the design is now coming on nicely.

A few changes have been made from the original spec, we will be writing to customers to let them know what they are shortly.

These changes for those that read the forum are:

We are considering going from 14 spoked to 12 which after intensive research is more the norm.
The width as originally advertised is incorrect, it was advertised at 29" and is now 36"
After 12 months searching we have recently found new premises that we are looking to move in during October (please see STW Devolopments part of the forum for further information). This potentially will delay delivery of Kit 1 until November as the move is likely to take at least a month. We hope customers who have placed a deposit understand this and welcome them calling us if they would like to discuss anything further.

Dean & Steve

Dean & Steve

As you have mentioned you are considering changing the design to one which is more the norm and I would like to add why I think you should stick with the design you have started which incidentally is a better proportioned engine to scale in my opinion having seen both types copied both as Burrells and Fowlers. Best of luck with the move and i'm quite happy to wait till November for Kit 1.

There are two types of Burrell Showmans Scenic Engine which were also built into Road Locos and Agricultural machines. Most were designed with 12 spoke wheels which were also of a smaller diameter and on some engines in my opinion look too small in proportion to the rest of the engine. This is probably as the early scenics were just upgraded showmans with extended boiler/conrods to make room for teh exciter dynamo. The other is the engine based on the Contractors type which was a generally bigger engine and sat much better as a scenic. This was mainly the case with the later engines built when the design had been refined to cope with the extra weight. As a result there are more engines about with 12 spoke wheels but when you see one with 14 and large diameter wheels you know you’ve seen something special as they look the nuts.

Burrells which were based on the Contractors type Loco have a few major defining changes to the original design thus giving it a better proportioned and powerful presence as a Scenic Showmans or Road Loco. The wheels were made bigger with two more spokes added on the fronts, the conrods were extended from (to scale 14" to 16") and the boiler was of different dimensions which with a 10" boiler would be fine. They all have 20 spokes on the rears.

The trend was also followed by John Fowler when he started making the B6 Superlion. The bigger engine needed bigger wheels. This is clear if you compare the “Iron Maiden” with “Valiant” They are both showmans but one is a smaller engine with smaller wheels. Valiant is a bigger rated engine and thus has bigger wheels.

The pride of the Burrell fleet were the scenic engines and in particular the largest engines in that catagory. They all had 14 spoke wheels.

If you stick with the 18" Front Wheels (to the rim), 14 spokes per Front Wheel, 16" Con Rods and 26" diameter Rear Wheels then you are designing a contractors type loco which is what Charles Burrell ended up using for his Scenics in the end as it was a better proportioned engine for it’s sheer size. Ex Mayor Reg 4000 is a perfect example of this type of design.

Your design so far looks very well proportioned and has the looks of the heavy end of the showmans family which is what you want in a scaled down version.
If you are going to start changing the number of spokes then you will need to make the diameter smaller which in turn will make the proportions look strange so the conrods will need to be shortened etc.

what we are all looking to achieve is producing a model that's going to turn heads and impress those who see it on the rally field and for you hopefully get orders.
Proportions are very important when it comes to scaling as you rightly know and personally I would want a model that is going to look the business.

I only know of one Contractors type Loco in 4" Scale and it looks very impressive and powerful and attracts a great deal of interest.
i’m sure you know exactly what I mean with the Horsby Chain Tractor.

If I had a choice of building an engine that is going to look that little bit different and more impressive in scale then I would choose the 14 spoke contractor type every time. especially in scale.

I was over joyed to see that you were basing the design on the largest Burrell scenic. lets face it if your going to build a monster you might as well build the biggest and best. When I committed to building this model I of course wanted to tell everyone I came across especially at rallies. Those who I know with full size and models have all expressed how nice it will be to see something that breaks away from the many similar engines you see. There are many Single Cylinder models out there, fewer compounds and only a splatter of 4” showmans, But there are only two interpretations of the behemoth which is the scenic showmans based on the contractors type engine that I know of and when they are out they always pull a crowd.
I hope you stick with your design even if it wasn't the trend. that’s what makes it desirable as you don’t come across them and when you do you just stand there in ore and say to yourself “I want one”.....

I'm one of the lucky ones who is....

Nick


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HI GUYS,
I DO HAVE TO AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT SONICK45 SAYS ON THIS POINT.
GUTTED THAT I'M NOT CURRENTLY IN A POSTION TO BUILD THE SHOWMANS BUT WILL FOR THE TIME FOLLOW CLOSELY THE BUILD OF OTHERS.

BEST OF LUCK TO ALL THE BUILDERS,

REGARDS
BUNGLE

How many Scenics currently exist with the 14 spoke 4' 7" wheel? Very few were built with these but some of the RLs may have been converted to showman's spec.
What names do these engines carry?

Nick's points are well made, if you are gong to do it make it big, (useful to have a longer smokebox than the 4" TE for cooking purposes) but it would be nice to know some examples to have a look at.

Tim

Tim
I'll compile a list plus a few models I know of for comparison with and without the larger wheels.

There are definitely more with 12 than 14 spokes however in 4" scale the larger wheels make a big difference in how the engine looks and sits and having consulted engine owners and makers they hold the same opinion. If your going to build one they say, build one big.

You look down on a 4" model and with such a big engine plus the canopy as well the front end can look understated and sometimes strangly small depending on colour choice if your not very careful. The spokes can llo to far apart for the amount of metal that is hanging above them which is excentuated due to the scale.
The 14 spoke larger front wheels help this perspective massively balancing it all out.

You get a much better overall look with the bigger front end.

Nick

The only two extant Scenic Showmans with fourteen spoke, large front wheels. that I have been able to find are 'Ex Mayor' (http://www.steamscenes.org.uk/?pc=/engines/burrell/showmans-road-locomotive/4000/) and 'Edward VII', at Thursford (http://www.steamscenes.org.uk/?pc=/engines/burrell/showmans-road-locomotive/2780/)

'Edward VII' is quite a useful engine as a miniature, in that it does not have a rear crane to hinder footplate access. It was built in 1905 and so converted to 'scenic' form, probably by extending the smokebox. The exciter platform is of the earlier pattern in that it does not have a horizontal joint with bolts to allow easier removal to access the cylinder covers. It may have the longer connecting rods.

'Ex Mayor' is a bit of an odd ball because it only has single gear drive. Both engines have 7' rear wheels.

There were 43 Scenic Showmans made either new or converted: no two engines were ever alike...

Tim

Brittania (showmans not scenic)
The President (converted back to Road Loco spec) Contractors type which is single drive like Ex Mayor.
[Personally this is my favorite Road Loco as it is a Beauty and a Beast.]
Both have 14 spoke front wheels.

There are more, not all of them are Scenics but they have the 14 spokes.

John Fowler made some with 14 spokes which tended to be the B6 conversions.

currently compiling list
Nick

Here is the list of the ones i know of.
There are more but it gives you an idea
i have included some Fowlers too and some with less than 14 spokes for comparison.
a couple of models are also included.

Britannia
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The President
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Ex Mayor

White Rose of York

Challenger

Valiant

Carry On

King Carnival

Supreme

Lion

The Lion

Pride of Wales

Kitchener

Titan



Model Engines
The Burrell RL was built from scratch by the owner and made with larger front wheels to give it better scale.
This is partly why I also feel STW should stick with the design they started with.






12 Spoke wheels

William V

King George v

Perseverance II

The Dalesman



For anyone thinking how boring it must have been searching for photos etc dont be as I had a very quiet 12 hour shift last night at work and put the spare time to good use.


Enjoy
Nick H

Wow Nick you must of had a quiet night!

Steve are the rear wheel rims going to a one piece rim like the first of the 4" Burrells,or are they going to two piece rims like the current 2" Burrells?

Just out of interest,thats all.

cheer's Tony

I have to admit the 14 spoke model road loco looks very, very impressive and I would pick it every time over the 12 spoke version...STW please do the 14 spoke version!!!

Having read Michael Lane's 1971 book on Burrell Showmans RLs the SRL(S) that fits the current spec is 'John Bull' (2796) with double gear drive, built in 1906 and converted by extending its smokebox in 1920, along with an added rear crane.  This engine had a copper cap to it's original extra long extension chimney! John Bull was a popular name for a SRLs - there are several in the lists. I think the rear crane is a total liability and should only be put on cosmetically (as an option) as it totally gets in the way of driving.

Ex-Mayor (4000)  had rear wheels that were 18" wide as compared to the more normal 22" this is why the engine looks tall and I think not as  powerfully impressive as some others.  
Other conversions were probably small wheeled.  All of the new builds (excepting 4000) had small front wheels & 6'6" rear wheels.

The large wheeled RLs probably started with single drive with later ones double.  I think there are some examples of later build RLs with the big wheels in the listings in Michael Lane's 'Burrell Style'.

Certainly seems that the good compromise is one of the converted SRL(S)s with a long smoke box and the RL with a short.  Having stood next to Ephraim, White Rose of York & Gladiator this w/e there is no doubt  
that the bigger wheels are much more impressive.

The later build General Gough (3888) does have large front wheels with a lot of daylight between the spokes.  This would pretty well be your original design with 6'6" rear wheels.  The engine fell in to a cellar up to its  
top during WWII on bomb damage clearance duties.

Quite a tangled web isn't it!

Tim 
[left]

Interesting read Tim,
Thanks for the insight as i don't have a copy of the book to read..


cheers
Nick

Hi S&D

well done to you both for your epic journey.
such a worthy cause too...
I am a PC and have come across hearing dogs through what i do.
amazing to see them working..


i know you have only just got back and i don't suppose much has happened whilst you have both been away.

I was just curious where you at with the beast.
It's a finger tapping difficult wait here as i have the workshop all ready to go and i'm constantly been asked questions about what it is i'm going to build and what it will look like..

Thing is Burrell RL's are fairly rare in 4" so i only have a few photos..
All the more reason to keep us updated on here so i can advertise it to others who are potentially interested but not willing to take the plunge for the first batch. (no trust hey)


Are you still going to be on track for November?
hope so.
i'll have come back of honeymoon by then just in time to dissappear for long periods of time down the garden...

The boss has been warned...

Ta,
Nick

Hi Nick,

While we have been away we have had a few opportunities to discuss the DCC engines we are about to manufacture. All i can say currently is that it looks like we are very much likely be making the large rear and front wheel version.

I will update you further once we have settled back in at work.

Dean

Saw 'Old Tim' at Dorset, does anyone fancy turning there DCC Road Loco into one of the Burrell Crane engines. I intend to make one from my Road Loco and if there were a couple of others interested then it would keep overall costs down. I have drawings and lots of photos of Old Tim along with some measurements I took whilst crawling all over the winch gear etc. at Dorset.

Steve

Jolly good name for an engine!

Next to this old warhorse we'll have to call you young Tim!

Any more news on design etc....

My obsessed mind needs feeding...

Cheers
Nick

Steve Traill wrote:

Saw 'Old Tim' at Dorset, does anyone fancy turning there DCC Road Loco into one of the Burrell Crane engines. I intend to make one from my Road Loco and if there were a couple of others interested then it would keep overall costs down. I have drawings and lots of photos of Old Tim along with some measurements I took whilst crawling all over the winch gear etc. at Dorset.

Steve

are you going to remove the pump off engine then and have two injectors cause i believe the 4"burrell design has a gear driven pump from just behined the flywheel just wondered