Coal again

Hi all,

In the August Issue (no159) of Narrow Gauge World, pages 16 to 19, is an article about Eco coal the alternative to Fossil fuel coal.

Sadly I am not able to reproduce the article due to copyright, but it will be of interest as the short study was made on the 15" gauge Bure Valley Railway in Norfolk.

Parliament has promised to exclude Heritage Railways ( Heritage Steam as a whole I presume?), however lobby groups have asked for an absolute exclusion to be written rather than the current stock answer " because heritage use does not get caught within the scope of the bill". Currently mine applications have been refused and the Ffos y Fran in south wales is to close next year. Bearing in mind this only covers the big heritage operators and makes no mention of miniature steam hobbyists.

Anyway the railway tested a number of coals as an alternative to Ffos coal (Welsh Steam) which was the comparison fuel, eco alternatives were Ecoal50, Homefire Ovals and Briteflame. The article implied that Ecoal50 was a close as possible to Welsh Steam ( I have no connections with Ecoal by the way!!!).

It was a technical evaluation not a commercial one but it did suggest that Green Coal is more expensive at the moment, but in time through more use and possibly more producers the price will drop. The real coal route will be coming from Russia or Columbia (where my coal came from) which to me makes no sense environmentally, hauling coal across thousands of miles by diesel fueled transport just to give us a clean credential?

Has any other forum members seen similar articles or have actually tried some of this "Coal"?

Richard

Hi Richard, I live in France and have a 4" Agricultural Burrell. Obtaining coal is a big problem, if you can get it at all! It usually is a mixture of anthracite and something else (?). Russian coal and lousy Polish coal is also available. All is in 20kg bags at an inflated price depending where you get it from. The DIY outlets used to have it but that source has now dried up so it is now having to go to private suppliers and buy as much as you can afford and pay a fortune! Maybe, god forbid, we will have to convert to running on gas!!
Regards
Greg

Seen a similar article somewhere, as mentioned its more expensive.

I've just bought a ton of Ffos y Fran to add to the just over half ton I've already got and I surmise I'm good for at least 5yrs now, by which time I'm hoping they will have sorted this mess out.

A ton and a half??!! God - you are a lucky man!!
Greg

Just a thought, but have you wondered about hiring a one ton van and getting a ton of Ffossy delivered somewhere on the southcoast and popping over and collecting it ?

Currently if you buy a ton it works out just over £8 a 25kg bag. Might be a way around your problem, depends once you've factored in van hire and ferry costs if its worth it.

'Popping' is not an option with Covid restrictions! It is 10 days confinement in the UK and tests there and back - although the tests are only 25 euros here! However, as from monday 8/Aug (so I understand) no confinement, but 'just the tests'!! Still stupidly expensive plus nearly 6 hours each way on the boat with vehicle! Just not worth it I think. I might be able to find someone in Calais which was a big mining town, but it is still six hours plus drive each way! France is a very big place!
Perhaps I can find someone to deliver - expensive yes, but the costs will still be the same I think! Thanks for your suggestion.
Greg

Ignoring the covid issue as I dont think that will be for ever, but it would depend on distances and how much it costs to get here and back again to see if it was worth it.

At the end of the day it might be worth dropping SuperHeat an e-mail and see if they would deliver over the channel they certainly dont say they wont, it comes on a pallet and mine was delivered via a 3rd party  (think it was Frieght Line)
https://www.supaheatfuels.co.uk/delivery--returns-3-w.asp
Yeah it will put the cost up but you might find it worth while to have some nice tastey Welsh Coal.

I have tried running my 4 inch Agri on wood - mostly crap wood from old pallets etc. It ran reasonably well but you needed a pile to go anywhere and going uphill I was feeding it in like a human conveyor belt.

However, and slightly more sensible, I also have tried running on "Taybrite" which is a smokeless Anthracite based fuel supplied by CPL ltd, which I normally use in my Rayburn (for heat, hot water and cooking). This comes in ovals and seems very suitable for the steam engine. It lights reasonable easy and burns well leaving no clinker and only fine ash. One minor disadvantage is that when working hard the fine ash goes up the chimney and so you get lots in your face. On the other hand it does sandblast the tubes keeping them fairly clean. It comes in 25kg bags and I usually buy half a ton and it works out at just over £11 per bag. Obviously buying a smaller quantity the price will be around £12.50.

The next time I order some coal from CPL I will also order a few bags of eco50 to try that out.

Clearly, the steam fraternity, miniature and full size, needs to be trying alternatives to steam coal as the supplies will become limited before much longer and I think some folks are burying their heads in the sand thinking things will go on as before. They won't. The NTET, of which I am a member, and the other heritage users of coal (rail, steam boats and and stationary steam) are forming an alliance to lobby the government  to protect the heritage steam sector from any over zealous green legislation, and need support from users of coal.

thehawk wrote:I have tried running my 4 inch Agri on wood - mostly crap wood from old pallets etc. It ran reasonably well but you needed a pile to go anywhere and going uphill I was feeding it in like a human conveyor belt.

Yes similar issue here, oak I found to be better, one of the problems I found was keeping a decent weight on the fire if you let it burn down to much one large chuff and most of the fire went straight up the chimney

thehawk wrote:
Clearly, the steam fraternity, miniature and full size, needs to be trying alternatives to steam coal as the supplies will become limited before much longer and I think some folks are burying their heads in the sand thinking things will go on as before. They won't. The NTET, of which I am a member, and the other heritage users of coal (rail, steam boats and and stationary steam) are forming an alliance to lobby the government  to protect the heritage steam sector from any over zealous green legislation, and need support from users of coal.

Must admit I can see the day when "burning" anything will just be plain illegal and to do such you'll need a costly licence. Sadly I can see large and small steam being static display items with only the odd costly steaming here and there in the end.

It never ceases to amaze me just how many of the steam fraternity seem to be oblivious to the issue regarding coal supplies for the heritage section and what is being done to allow us to continue steaming.

There are a number of government bodies involved in the ban on burning bituminous coal.
DEFRA has stated that the ban does not apply to the heritage sector, however we obtain our coal in the back of the domestic market and only consume a mere 35'000 - 40'000 tons per year - that is heritage railways, traction engines, steam boats and ships, stationary engines such as Kew Bridge, Papplewick Pumping Station and Ellen Road Mill etc.

Thee has been a lot of beer tent bravado banded about on social media from boycotting Westminster to opening new collieries..... all nonsense.

The Heritage Fuels alliance has lobbied Westminster, there is a proposed bill that will allow us to burn coal, the issue is supply - a reliable supply of imported clean coal at an affordable price, bio coal is also being tested on a number of heritage railways.

We're seen as "polluting for fun", so owners who don't know how to fire correctly or think it's clever to make clouds of smoke as if to stick two fingers up to "The Establishment" are not helping our cause. Write to your MP's or join the NTET.

Its simiilar to when I was listening to folks complaining about the ban on incandescent lamps and the fact once we leave the "EU" we'd be able to buy them again

Regarding incandescent light bulbs - they were a bunch of idiots weren't they? Just burying their heads in the sand I think - obviously 'Brexiteers'! ! Regarding the coal issue - I don't live in the UK and I don't think anyone here gives a toss about heritage railways - least of all our mayor who just happens to live across the road! I can still buy coal here, delivered but at a cost!
Greg

Well just like buses I order a ton of welsh a while back and then someone "gives me" 2 ton of Homefire Ovals

I wasnt going to refuse it as we have an open fire anyway, just wondered if anyone had tried these on an engine, I did a test fire on our open fire in the lounge and they didnt half kick some heat out, although the actual burning process was some what boring and more akin to having a gas fire going as they just sort of "glowed" but did wind out a heck of a lot of heat.

Hi!
Yes interesting stuff this ´processed’ coal! I paid a fortune for some Polish stuff here in France including delivery which was wet but was Ok I suppose. Suddenly, I spotted in our local diy some bags of something similar to what you have obtained and a lot cheaper! I have heard it does burn, or ´glow’ well, gives off fantastic heat but also leaves very little ash - just a dust! So it probably is good stuff and will work well!!
Grég

Must admit that I cant wait to try it, next outing will be the 3rd Oct for me so will report my findings.

Yes on the home fire there was very little ash or clinker, this lot I have is soaking wet but doesnt seem to bother it and I think it must be 5 to 10yrs or more old as there are loads of roots etc had grown through it as the coal bunker had been buried in weeds and stuff. But the small load I test fired on the home fire went like fission reaction once it got going in the way of heat output, but the actual burn was just so lack lustre and un-interesting, I'm expecting it to be some what uncontrollable

I wonder if it will stay in the box if you worked the engine and just doesnt all get sucked up the tubes and out the chimney I'll be interested on the smell as well, cant beat a bit of welsh coal smell when the engines running on it.

Yes probably won’t smell like ´real’ coal!! Good point though if it will stay in the grate!
Grég

For my sins I worked at research laboratories of British Coal, some years ago now, we did a lot of analysis on coals/fuels and their burning characteristics.

Welsh steam coal has a number of characteristics which other fuels don't. It thas just enough volatile content and sulphur to make it reactive enough making it comparitively easy to light and burns wthout too much smoke if there is a a bit of oxygen above the firebed . ( Too much volatile gives lots of smoke of course, and burns and soots up the tubes). The sulphur also gives that "nice" edge to the smell of the exhaust gases as well as improving the reactivity.

Welsh steam is lowish in ash, with enough to protect the firebars but not too much to clog the fire bed. If the ash content is too low you will get more rapid firebar degredation. The ash protects the firebars

Most important of all is that Welsh steam coal has a high ash fusion temperature( the temperature at which the ash melts)  so does not tend to clinker at the high fire bed temperatures when the engine is working hard, (or the blower is on).

If you mix coals and different fuels you will lower the ash fusion temperature due to the eutectic effect ( ie add an impurity to a substance it will melt at a lower temperature, acting like a flux). Briquettes are a mixture of all sorts of coal, some have petroleum coke or wood mixed in, so tend to clinker more easily. Wood has a particularly low ash fusion temperature. The temperatures in an engine firebox are higher than in a domestic  fire or stove, so firebox clinker is more likely

I have tried various briquettes in my 6" Foden and had a lot of clinker problems. The Welsh steam coal, Ffoss-y-fran opencast is perfect for our engines but the opencast site has a limited life and runs out soon. Get some while you can

Steve

Thats really interesting Steve, thanks for sharing the above,

Revolving wrote:
I have tried various briquettes in my 6" Foden and had a lot of clinker problems. The Welsh steam coal, Ffoss-y-fran opencast is perfect for our engines but the opencast site has a limited life and runs out soon. Get some while you can

Steve

I'll report back after the 3rd Oct on how I get on with these Ovals ? Yup got a good 1.5 Ton of Ffossy now in reserve, should keep me going for about 5 to 6 yrs as long as I dont move to a bigger engine

Right my thoughts on Homefire Ovals on a 4" Agri

First thoughts is as I expected, its quite a boring fire, however if you want low smoke or no smoke then Ovals are very good at this, bar the initial light up smoke and bit of welsh I used, when I put any ovals on they produced almost zero smoke from cold to being lit and making heat.
You dont need much, nothing like welsh where you load it to the gunnels and let it get on with it, ovals only seemed to need to be two deep to produce a very boring predictable fire that didnt really need any "effort", any more and I expect it would melt the fire box as they get so hot.
Today was a bit of a sit and boil water with a few short runs so didnt really give them a really good test but for that kind of work they seemed very predictable, how they perform on say a road run will be more interesting I feel.
Couple of note worthy things, these Ovals produce piles of fine ash, next is you darent touch the fire if its been burning a while with the poker or it just collapses in a pile of red hot dust, it seems to recover very quickly if its a bit dull, seems it can be left for ages with zero attendance (handy for beer tent times I feel ), it doesnt smell quite the same as welsh

Thank you for those that replied and tested other options to coal, I think in advance I will get some Welsh coal and based on the findings so far will feel quite confident moving over to an alternative.

All I have to do is finish the engine, sadly winter will slow things up for me as I don't have a heated work area to paint in, well apart from a second floor bedroom which I did use in the past, but the wheels weigh 42 kg and I think the bunker weighs around 30kg, three flights of stairs, hmmm!

Best wishes

Richard.

I'd stick with Welsh while its available, there are some folks who seem to say it "goes off" but I've got some Welsh thats well over 5yrs old and just left outside, theres no noticeable difference in burning it than a fresh new bag from what I've found. Speaking to a friend he has some coal thats over 10yrs old and again he doesnt find its changed at all. So I have no worry about my "stash" ageing over the years.

I think the bigger issue will be being allowed to burn anything in the not too distant future, how they (the gubbermint) do it is unclear, it might be just via a large tax on stuff like coal/ecocoal/wood OR some kind of license you'll need, which of course will be quite expensive.