just saving to start my build

hey all just started saving for my deposit as i have always wanted to build one since i was little and had mamods already excited is an understament.
can the vulcanised tyres be done at a later date or do they have to be done from kit 1. been doing my research and they all look really good would love to see a video from a cold steam up to everything working and filling boiler and so on really.

thanks all and happy steaming

Liam

Hi Liam,. I am a 4" builder but the two are almost identical! I would almost certainly go for vulcanised tyres ready fitted and supplied by STW - they really are worth the extra!! Trist me, they are!! I dont think they can be fitted as an 'add on' as they heat involved with the process will destroy much of your hard work - paint just to mention one thing destroyed. I won't go into the other things which will be destroyed here but maybe others will! Have fun. Have a good build. STW are always there to help and they are GOOD!!
Regards
Greg

My 4" had its rears vulcanized about 10yrs after its build and yes they will need re-painting afterwards.

LiveSteam wrote:My 4" had its rears vulcanized about 10yrs after its build  and yes they will need re-painting afterwards.

good to know looks like il be saving a little more then before I can start

Be very careful before parting with your money. I started a 2" Burrell in January and had problems with all of the first four kits. The quality of the kits was unbelievable, terrible. The instructions were wrong which made it very confusing. Extra parts were provided in kits that were not required. After five very frustating months I sent kits 2 3 and 4 back. I had completed kit 1 but not without problems.

STW gave me the money back for the returned kits BUT NOT THE DEPOSIT. I am £700 out of pocket as I had completed kit 1 and couldn't send it back. The fault was entirely theirs, my engineering friends who are making another suppliers steam trains were amazed at the thoroughly poor quality of the kits I was sent. They just could not believe it. Read some of the posts about holes not lining up, this started on kit one for me. Kit 2 a hole was 7mm too big. Kit 3 had so many problems I just had to give up. A hobby is supposed to be enjoyable and relaxing, not frustrating and time wasting sorting out other peoples shoddy work. At £300 a time the kits should be perfect.

Don't waste your money, go to another supplier. The only reason STW kits look so good once completed is because of all the extra work their customers have had to do to solve their poor quality manufacturing. I can provide much more detail if required.

No disrespect to Will, he tried hard to help.

Also, the 2" is the baby of the range. If it comes to solving problems on a 2" for a customer, or solving a problem on a £60,000 Fairground Engine kit, where are STW going to spend their time!!!

Hi Johnzzr,

sorry to say but I cannot second that at all. With my build I was much surprised with the quality of the kits. Like on my belly tank some five out of fourhundred holes for the rivet bolts were out of position by a fraction of a mm and could easily be fixed with a drill.

When I had a issue STW helped me quick and easy. Running into a tight corner they were always getting out of their way to help me via mail, phone or face to face.

So in short, my experience with STW and their staff is completely different with what you stated.

Cheers

Elwood

Hi Elwood
I am pleased yours turned out well. There are some beautiful engines on this forum and I do wish mine had turned out like them. Unfortunately though, I got the thin end of the wedge with each kit, I know not why. I was so positive when I started and very disappointed when things went wrong. I just felt as a responsible citizen I would point out my experience. Good luck to everyone with their builds.

I am so surprised and very sorry for you. I am in the middle of building my second, a Burrell 4" agricultural after building a full size Lykamobile. Yes, it probably is true that we all have had minor problems, but always STW have been quick to rectify faults or replace parts. Holes not aligning is an age old problem but there again usually easy to fix. Bigger things do escape the net and I'm sorry you have not persevered - have you taken your problems up with Dean? He will ALWAYS make sure things are sorted out! All in all I can thoroughly recommend STW.
Kind regards
Greg

Johnzzr I was told by Ian when my block oil port wasn't machined properly that they can't check every one or you wouldn't be able to afford the kit it was a bit of a insult as such a crucial part should be checked when you are paying good money

Johnzzr, I feel your pain and frustration, its a pity you didn't stick with it because most things can be corrected. The Instructions though are a different kettle of fish, to be honest they are the most important part of the Kit as Airfix for example will tell you and they are actually hardly worth the paper they are written on, no Part numbers just names of the part but been novices we don't know what parts they are talking about that's where the Community helps.

Marks comments are a bit concerning as i would have thought there was some Quality Control going on at STW.

Regards
Nigel.

Hi Mark/Nigel
My view exactly, when you are paying good money you expect a good product. You are right, the instructions are not worth the paper they are written on. I was supplied parts that were also included in the instructions, and yet the parts were not needed. This was several hours wasted effort working out why there was not enough room on the axle to fit the front wheels. The perch bracket hole was 7mm too big. It was only after three returns of the kit that STW sent me a replacement. I couldn't believe how easily the front wheels went on it. I struggled for hours trying to fit them on the original kit and was told by STW to buy a special measuring device (can't remember the name). I was also told I had fitted the front wheel bushes incorrectly, but I hadn't as they fitted perfectly on the replacement.
The quality of many parts, and the quality of the instructions are clearly not fit for purpose.
Yes, STW are very helpful when you have a problem, but, you shouldn't have the problem to start with. When you set aside a day or two to crack on, and after half an hour you have to send the part, or the whole kit back, you are then stuck and its time to get back to the garden.
If STW adopted a RIGHT FIRST TIME POLICY they would save themselves and their customers a load of aggravation. As an ex IT waller, I can see they either have very poor internal systems, none at all, or very poor management.

Hey all,

I'd rather not get into a public debate however the picture being painted isn't exactly accurate either. With the perch we had simply not sent out a bush that sat between that and the fork as it was the first time we had added the bush so it got missed of the packing list and a rogue axle was sent out in Kit 2. This axle sent was cast instead of machined and had a collar as part of the casting something not on the machined version and therefore not shown on the isometrics. The customer then fitted both collars meaning the wheels didn't fit. It took me all of 5 seconds to spot this after discussing it on the telephone and the whole kit was replaced.

Even though this is our forum, i am not one to delete negative comments as it gives potential customers a clearer picture and also us the scope to improve but i will reserve the right to have my say. I disagree and believe what we supply is fit for purpose, hundreds (over 1000 in total) out there running prove that and that saying the instructions are not worth the paper they are written on is more about the builder than the writer. We will however review them, particularly on the 2" as they are a few years old, to see where improvements can be made.

What i will say though is for every 'John' there are many many more satisfied customers. I can count on one hand the number of refunds we have issued in 13 years for customers unhappy with the instructions or quality.

Over 200 2" Burrells have been built with very few issues. From a company perspective we have to draw a line in the ground, for some that line will make the product too difficult and for others it will make it too easy. This is based on the experience of the individual.

As i said above we will happily review the 2" instructions and see where improvements can be made however i would like to point out eleven years ago my then 13 and 10 year old sons built one (did not paint) between them without the help of Steve and I, following only the instructions and asking advice (the same as the customer can over the telephone) along the way. One is currently a lorry driver the other has a degree in football management and works in schools coaching.

Reference the adapt 'right first time' policy. We have now employed a new QC guy to focus on that role only. He has been with us 6 - 8 weeks (estimate) so fingers crossed improvements will be made along the way HOWEVER in the nature of our business mistakes WILL HAPPEN from time to time. It is the nature of the beast and one of the reason there isn't a dozen STW's you can chose from. HE WHO MAKES NOTHING NEVER MAKES A MISTAKE!! I was told that many years ago and its pretty factual.

If large corporations like Fords, Cummins, major racing teams, and companies like NASA with millions or even billions of pounds to throw at it make mistakes how can you expect a company like ours not to have the occasional error. It is how it's dealt with that counts and i believe where ever possible the majority of issues were dealt with promptly and fairly however we are always striving to improve on production, quality, customer service and communication.

Regards

Dean

I'd like to add one final thing reference the monthly cost.

No one, especially me, disputes the fact what we supply isn't cheap. Our models are expensive and yes to a customer £299 is a substantial amount each month but in return for that what we supply is fit for purpose and tremendous value for money.

If you break down the cost, of the £299 the government take £50 in VAT. That means the 'true' amount we receive is not £8568 but £7140 which after the deposit equates to £249.16 per kit.

In a 2" Burrell there a grand total of 3415 parts despatched. This averages out at £2.09 per part. There are 810 individual components (not inc fasteners or consumables). This means that if we totally exclude the 2596 fasteners we supply (which obviously have a cost) and the 9 other consumables like glue, graphite yarn and foliac, each component needs to be manufactured (and a profit made), packed in those little bags you get them in and then labelled for £8.81 each.

With the 2" copper boiler alone costing close on £2000 this in reality leaves 809 parts which need to produced etc for around £5140 or £6.35 each!

This takes into no consideration the 12 month design time, writing the instructions and ongoing customer service costs or the £500k stock we hold as spares to support customers, the £500k machinery we have to make the parts and the 11,000sq ft factory we operate from.

I challenge ANY customer to open any 2" kit of ours and tell me as they unpack it that any individual component within that kit is not worth somewhere between £6.35 and £8.81.

Hi Johnzzr, I am rather amused regarding your comments. Your so called 'engineer' friends' must be very junior apprentice engineers and then probably not mechanical engineers either. They are certainly not timeserved apprentices (bench fitting, fabrication, electrical etc etc) They have had not much experience from what you have said, probably just some time wasted in some university or college - your words not mine, determined from your expressions of your problems. Airfix, meccano and Lego kits are a different ball park, this is not the market place that STW are in. STW manufacture high quality, cnc machined components which require 'fitting'. Your 'engineer friends' should understand the term 'fitting'. With some patience and engineering skill you will have a product to be proud of - speed is not of the essence here. It is a hobby! Take your time, and take some pride in what you are trying to achieve. I am a time served mechanical engineer, I started my apprenticeship in Belfast (Davidsons) and finished it with Michelin Tyre company ltd. However
, I went on to a career spanning some 22 years as a computer systems engineer until I retired. Skills learnt are skills never forgotton. I went through all this 'right first time everytime' rubbish. It was the 'in vogue' at the time put upon us by management that didn't understand the way of the world. IT NEVER WORKS. I am now 70 years of age, in not very good health but if I were you I would listen to some sound words of advice. Reflect upon what you want, to achieve in life (not the completion of some airfix plastic kit) and remember, what you put in is what you get out - forget the RIGHT FIRST TIME garbage, The right first time is down to you and nobody else!!
Regards
Greg

As with everything theres always 2 sides to the story thank you dean for the break down in the price it puts it in to prospective when you look at it like that the savings in man hours is also a factor it's just frustrating when things don't go right but you can't keep everyone happy all the time not even me with the few problems I've experienced it just makes it more rewarding in the end your doing a great job I'm really happy with my 2" Burrell now I got it in steam.
It's like a journey building a 2" Burrell persist and you will get there in the end thanks again dean and all at steam traction world for every thing

Hi dean thank you very much for the break down i have 15 years of mechanical knowledge under my belt from working on a steam railway with my old man from being shown and tought stuff by all the old boys down there and to use lathes, i have made basic carrot valves etc, but by all means i am no expert, i have done my trade as a chef and budgeting and break downs of menus i get exactly where your coming from, once i have saved my deposit im more than willing to document my build as closely as possible to what i do for others to see to help you keep doing what your doing, i might even make a proper little indepth series out of it if its something you would like to put on your site of an amature like my self building the 2 inch if it makes you feel any better i will still be purchasing one of your kits and i look forward to building it with your support group, all the best

Liam

Admin wrote:I'd like to add one final thing reference the monthly cost.

No one, especially me, disputes the fact what we supply isn't cheap. Our models are expensive and yes to a customer £299 is a substantial amount each month but in return for that what we supply is fit for purpose and tremendous value for money.

If you break down the cost, of the £299 the government take £50 in VAT. That means the 'true' amount we receive is not £8568 but £7140 which after the deposit equates to £249.16 per kit.

In a 2" Burrell there a grand total of 3415 parts despatched. This averages out at £2.09 per part. There are 810 individual components (not inc fasteners or consumables). This means that if we totally exclude the 2596 fasteners we supply (which obviously have a cost) and the 9 other consumables like glue, graphite yarn and foliac, each component needs to be manufactured (and a profit made), packed in those little bags you get them in and then labelled for £8.81 each.

With the 2" copper boiler alone costing close on £2000 this in reality leaves 809 parts which need to produced etc for around £5140 or £6.35 each!

This takes into no consideration the 12 month design time, writing the instructions and ongoing customer service costs or the £500k stock we hold as spares to support customers, the £500k machinery we have to make the parts and the 11,000sq ft factory we operate from.

I challenge ANY customer to open any 2" kit of ours and tell me as they unpack it that any individual component within that kit is not worth somewhere between £6.35 and £8.81.

"saying the instructions are not worth the paper they are written on is more about the builder than the writer."

Thanks for the break-down Dean and the insult, "yes" it is difficult to understand when you have dyslexia which luckily your children haven't got.
That's why the instructions are read over and over again to make sure nothing is missed but glad you are going to review them.

Nigncoz wrote:"saying the instructions are not worth the paper they are written on is more about the builder than the writer."

Thanks for the break-down Dean and the insult, "yes" it is difficult to understand when you have dyslexia which luckily your children haven't got.
That's why the instructions are read over and over again to make sure nothing is missed but glad you are going to review them.

Hi Nigel

I will start off by saying that Dean did not mean to insult anyone with that comment, however 99% of people who complain about the instructions are people who don't read them through thoroughly or at all, or decide they know best and don't do something, only to then complain that the instructions didn't say how important it was, or that the instructions didn't say to do something in that kit then. I apologies on Deans behalf if you do feel insulted as it certainly wasn't his intent (he is dealing with some business outside the office at the moment and is unable to respond himself this morning).

I also have dyslexia (all be it at a low level), and I understand that you have to read them several times to spot everything, however I would say that it doesn't make the instructions worthless, it just makes them less important than the ISO drawings, and if there are problems with the ISO drawings as well this will be dealt with when I review the instructions.

Many thanks

Will@STW

Hi Will, fair comment well made Will, must admit the drawings are a great help to me, we best put this to bed.

Nigel.

well after much research i was going to build a 2 inch but a 4 inch came up and so i took the leap and purchased a 4inch dcc road loco and bar a few holes and bits and bobs im very impressed with the kit so far look forward to getting the rest as and when they come

Well done!

Have fun with the build.

Cheers

Elwood

infliction4661 wrote:well after much research i was going to build a 2 inch but a 4 inch came up and so i took the leap and purchased a 4inch dcc road loco and bar a few holes and bits and bobs im very impressed with the kit so far look forward to getting the rest as and when they come

Only a slight step up then

The 4" DCC Road Loco is a lovely bit of kit.