Help needed with injector

Hi

Put it on youtube then copy link in here

never posted anything on youtiube, will try.
Else I could send it to you via wetransfer.com

Elwood

Hi

Which ever suits you is fine by me

I am still wondering if there is debris of some sort inside the injector somewhere,blocked holes or washer jammed maybe .

Have you tried the injector with output side disconnected yet ?

Keep trying

Kev

Kevster wrote:I am still wondering if there is debris of some sort inside the injector somewhere,blocked holes..........

Doesnt take much, mine died mid steam once, turned out to be a thin wisp, almost the thickness of a hair, of dam PTFE tape sat in the bottom of the cone. PTFE tape is now banned on all bar a couple of fittings and then used very carefully and sparingly.

elwood-59 wrote:Hi Lynn,

I actually have such a video, just don‘t know how to put it in the forum.

Elwood

Hi Elwood

To add videos to the forum you need to put them on YouTube, and then put the link in when you click the YouTube button on the top bar.

Thanks

Will@STW

Hi Will

We have been conversing on other media

For completeness here is the video



I have suggested further investigation processes and detail clarification.

From the video it looked like there was still glops (best way I can describe it) of air coming out of the water stream before the steam went on, mine is a constant stream, and it looked very much like mine did when the cone had that wisp of PTFE tape in it.

Be interesting to see what it turns out to be.

Hi All,

@Lynn, thanks to post the video, I was trying to get it on youtube, but just could not get the knack of it, so I had send it to you.
Then we drifted off and discussed next steps, sorry for that.

To answer some of the questions & based on valuabe input and ideas from Lynn:
I tried to see if the injector is picking up by itself by removing the feed pipe to the clack valve. Unfortunately I could not raise steam at this time, only managed about 35 to 40 psi with wood and, in order to speed things up, put coal too much too early, literally drowning the fire. So I could not get close to starting point of injector. To make matters worse I started to get a knocking noise from LP reverse eccentric hitting the water pump transfer shaft bearing  housing (or so it seems); without working pump, a knocking motion and questionable function of injector I called it a day.

Furthermore Govenment (the two legged version) only allowed me to go out and play for some time, the rest of the week is sheduled different, no play time.

But while still in steam (sort of) I checked function of clack valve. pusing in the ball with a allen key there is steam, releasing the ball, the steam "leak" stops. So clack valve is seating and valve to boiler is open. I even did it before with cold water in boiler with then only a VERY little pressure - just the water head in the boiler above the clack valve so 150 mm tops or 0,015 bar or 0,2 psi, still the ball seats.

As for teflon tape, I had some very nasty experiences with that myself in the past. During my time in workshop some 40 years ago I was taught to use teflion tape only sparingly and most importantly to leave the first two turns of the thread without tape, so to ease installation and to avoid "contaminating" system with those sheared off parts of teflon tape. So no, I should not have that in the injector. I heard the "washer" rattle inside the injector, when I mounted it, and before mounting it I got it back from Bruce, who has a) cleaned and b) tested it. Following that I would like to rule out the injector as being faulty. BTW: the adapter between water valve and injector I used loctite 243 as liquid sealant also sparing the first 2 threads.
Still it is good to get feedback from others using the same injector and setup. My experience goes to several machines but the all behave very much different, but as layout of pipework and design  (and age) of injetcor differs, this did not really surpise me. But here we are talking about siblings better (almost) identical twins so the injectors should be much more similar (i hope).

Filter is installed as per instructions, as is all the pipework, no alternations there.
Lynn suggested to unscrew the clack valve a bit, maybe 1/2 turn to see if the ball lift is sufficient. Although I have measured it already in the past and shoudl be ok, will do that as it is a quick and easy check.

As soon as I have done all Government wants me to do I will look at the motion, sort that out, solve the new leaks I experienced and then go for next steaminng.

I will be back with next findings

Thanks

Elwood

Hi all,

sorry for the long silence, finally was able to do next steaming. During last steaming I noticed a knocking noise from LP eccentrics, noticing that the eccentics have managed to loosen themselves and are now hitting both the water pump bearing boss and the water pump eccentric. So I had to dismantle the whole lot to get to the water pump drive, which also was not installed 100% correct. Now all is sorted, and back together so as today‘s wheatherforcast was good, cold but no rain, I set out to test injector.

Unfortunately I did not even reach 50 psi, started with wood and a rag soaked in petroleum, reached 10 psi after 30 min, about 35 psi after another 10 min, started to change from (hot buring) wood to coal by adding 5 small lumbs (slowly slowly....) and from then on it went downhill, whatever i tried i could not get above 45 psi. In the past I had used the engine ticking over to add more draft in the chimney so not to use the blower or to support him. But today, no matter what I did ,no success.

I only now have found some new leaks, now the safeties do leak at the base as does the ball valve in the injector clack valve, both new....
so I called it a day.

So, sorry, no update on the injector, did not even get near to operation. Wheather forcast for rest of the week is not very promising, but workshop has a roof, so I can lick my woulds i.e. sort out what I have found being wrong and hope for next time.

Cheers

Elwood

Hi Elwood

It happens. Did you get a wet smokebox and were the tubes still clear? Have you got an extension to the chimney? On Crystal I use a 4" gas flue pipe of 5ft or so long. This is stuffed in the top of the chimney to aid drawing the fire.

Another problem I get is on cold and calm days where I steam in front of the garage. I often get a down draft rolling off the garage roof which will and does suppress the steaming ability dramatically.

I have for testing stayed with wood all the day. As it can be adjusted quickly and simply. Where coal takes time to cook off and to start producing useful heat. I have also used the compressed wood logs like this one Compressed Wood Log . 6 of them in the firebox with some paraffin down the holes in the middle will take Crystal from 0 to 140psi in 70 to 90 minutes with no interaction from me at all. I also used the compressed log trick for unattended steaming raising when transporting Crystal "open trailer" to a time sensitive day event. Light the fire about 60 mins from the final destination. Then when unloading, coal on and away she goes.

When starting a rag soaked in parafin would be safer than using petrol .

Keep trying you will get there ,it's common to have these problems when things are new,after a while it will all settle down.

Kev

Remember Kev. Elwood is German so petroleum basically means paraffin etc. Not petrol as in English.

Hi,

to answer the questions:
Yes, swept the tubes and cleaned the ash pan, removed the grate so that should be ok
Yes chimney extension in place (about 1,2m, so about 4 ft)
Windy day today, place for firing is between two semi-detached houses with a car garage in betweeen so some (natural) draft along the chimney extension.

Sorry for misleading you - I used (in German) petroleum  (the stuff to use for lamps - not cars!) - you call it paraffin. Ha! You beat me at that Lynn!!!!

Just a bit frustratin that in some instances it's easy to reach blow-off pressure nextr time (with very simillar circumstances) you just don't get it. Steep learing curve!
Hmmm Compressed Wood - did not think of that. Will have to get more wood anyways, so might give it a try.

Thanks

Cheers

Elwood

elwood-59 wrote:
Unfortunately I did not even reach 50 psi, started with wood and a rag soaked in petroleum, reached 10 psi after 30 min, about 35 psi after another 10 min, started to change from (hot buring) wood to coal by adding 5 small lumbs (slowly slowly....) and from then on it went downhill, whatever i tried i could not get above 45 psi. In the past I had used the engine ticking over to add more draft in the chimney so not to use the blower or to support him. But today, no matter what I did ,no success.

Surprised it didnt take off with a decent amount from the steam blower, how much water did you have in the boiler as that can drastically change the time frame to get some decent pressure. In my early days I tended to run it with far too much normally it was 3/4 up the glass and at that level the Agri would often take in excess of 2hrs to get even close to 80psi
1/3 of a glass these days I find is more than enough, although even then it can randomly take longer than expected. As Lynn says you can get odd drafts on some days which can cause havoc.

Good remark, but this time I had less than half glass of water in the boiler, so I think this was not then problem today.

Cheers

Elwood

Next Issue

This morning trying to attend the leakage at the safeties, removed the assembly, made a new gasket and tried to reinstall, noticing the base plate of safeties does rock sideways. closer inspection revealed rear safety trumpet protrudes about 0,4 mm out of base plate, front is a bit better but also not flush. And, no, did NOT drop, bend or mishandled neither safety valve nor cylinder block.

Not having noticed that before I am a bit worried.. So far I only followed Lynn and Steve T‘s suggetion to use corn flake box carton, liberally covered by oil as a gasket but having trouble with it sticking to the part (namely the „printed“ side), maybe the Kellogs box in england is different than in Germany So this time I changed to professional sealing material (good up to 300 deg C and 60 bar (570 F and 870 psi) so well withing what we experience) with thickness of 0,5mm. Don‘t think cardboard is much thicker as such, so being compressed to take up the 0,4 mm.

How do your safeties look like on the „inside“? I am a bit shy of using a file to remove the „excessive“ material for obvious reasons.

Cheers

Elwood

PS wanted to include a pic but cannot remember how to do after photobucket closed „free“ account.

Hi all,

It‘s always fruitful to either step back from your problem or to explain it to somebody else, either they have a solution or idea or, like in this case, explaining rephrases your problem

During my explanation to Government she just went Hm, ok, oh, bad, what will you do?, ah and please carry out the waste bin.
While doing that I remembered I originally had ordered several different sheets of gasket material suitable for anything from cylinder head gasket (for a internal combustion engine) to a oil pump. Part of it are two sheets of above mentioned steam and oil resistant mid temperature mid pressure gasket material. I had used 0,5mm thickness, but I also had 1mm. Made same gasket from 1mm and cut out some more to clear the two trumpets. Low and behold, gasket fits, safeties are solid, no shake rattle and roll Now if only the gasket is working ok...

Thanks
Cheers

Elwood

this is what I used:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MSJTSB0/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_CF9UEbH24JG65 (bought A3 size so 300 x 420mm - should last me a while)

Hi Elwood

Cant remember for sure, check with Will. The trumpet bottoms need to be flush with the flange as the edge of the trumpet interferes with the block casting. This being the reason for the upset on the mating faces. My trumpets are flush if not slightly lower as I draw files the flange flat before first fitting.

elwood-59 wrote: So far I only followed Lynn and Steve T‘s suggetion to use corn flake box carton, liberally covered by oil as a gasket but having trouble with it sticking to the part (namely the „printed“ side), maybe the Kellogs box in england is different than in Germany So this time I changed to professional sealing material (good up to 300 deg C and 60 bar (570 F and 870 psi) so well withing what we experience) with thickness of 0,5mm. Don‘t think cardboard is much thicker as such, so being compressed to take up the 0,4 mm.

I had a number of continual failures (well dribbles) with cardboard type gaskets, so moved KLINGERSIL, think it was their C-4400, brilliant stuff not cheap but since switching no further dribbles and they seem to be happy to be reused as long as the mating surfaces are clean and they go back on exactly the same way they came off.

Hi all,

did the next steaming today. Added another tube to my chimney extension, so now it‘s well above the (flat) garage roof i need to fire in front of (no other space...) no back flow of smoke and constant burning of kindling wood.
With that additional extension was able to reach 10 psi withing 30 min - I think the quickest and easiest one so far.
had the pressure up to about 130 psi when I first tried the injector. Delivery tube to clack valve off, Injector worked and send a rush of water along the tube.  Attached tube and tried again, same as before, either pure steam or mixture of steam and water rushing out of overflow, at no point I was able to have only a dribble of water out of overflow with that glup, glup sound of injector working. Follwing Lynn‘s advise I loosened clack valve plug to increase ball lift. Opened in 1/6 of turn increments to 2 full turns, no change.
Clack valve working ad sealing as with 100 psi and tube removed no steam leaking out of (open) connection, but with a hex head wrens I could oush up teh ball and have steam&water rushing out => ball valve sealing and globe valve open. (tested again at about 10 psi with same result...
Between tests always had some water running to cool down the injector (cold to the touch).
I noticed a small leakage of steam from globe valve which needs attention, either by reworking to use PTFE as suggested by LiveSteam or to replace with different globe valve (Lynn. -which one did you use, as you seem to have replaced with a Steam Fitting one?)
Back to basics now, at least the steam raising as such was successful.

Cheers

Elwood

Hi Elwood

Yes it is a steam fitting globe valve.

Hummmmmm. Definitely appears to be a clack valve issue. Can you confirm the passage in to the boiler is clear and the valve stem and PTFE seat is not fouling the passage.

Another test, not sure if I have said before, crack the joint of the water delivery from the injector to the clack, with the clack valve shut. This introduces a pressure raising restriction and the injector will push out the over flow but also is able to squirt water out of the slightly - ever so sligtly loose nut on the bottom of the clacks. Mine put a good fine jet of water out once I cracked the pipe nut open a fraction of one flat turn.

P.S. Elwood.

I can do a "facetime" or facebook messenger video, call live if needed.

Hi all,

sorry for the long silence. Using your advice above and some (offline) input from Lynn, who offered to look into it and guide me through this is what I did and what I came to:

- injector seems to be working, with closed clack valve and opening the pipe connetor SLOWLY I have positive pressure at pipe.
- when cold I can have a flow of water coming out of boiler when I manually lift the ball with pipe disconnected => cut off valve open and letting water/steam pass
- checked setting of ball lift - as in thread of 9f in Burrell 4“ section we also found that the dimensions of limiting bolt set as per instructions give excessive lift (thanks Lynn) so I set it to 2,50 or as close as I could get => still the same
- reset ball lift to about 1mm (for testing only) and, under steam, slowly unscrewed plug to increase lift, hopefully to a good working point, but even at more than 2 turns (so more that 2,5mm of total lift), still not working.
- minor leakage of steam from injector globe valve, new globe valve in the mail, should be here next week, hopefully.

unless you have another idea I will remove both injector assembly and boiler clack valve, check (rattling of injector, flow of water valve, function of clack cut off valve etc), resealing and refitting it. As mentioned above already injector was tested at manufacturer and found to be in working condition.
The only thing I did not do was to run the injector without strainer so not to have a lot of muck additionally in the system.

Cheers

Elwood

Hi All,

just a quick update, after removing clack valves and injector assembly.
- water pump clack valve leaking ever so slighly (sucking on the „input“ you feel a slight leak) would explain issues with backflow from boiler to tender => will be looked at
- injector side clack valve => leaking as there is much muck clinking to the ball after only one steaming. The stuff feels a bit like oil coal or hardened steam seal (which I had used for sealing the clack valve to the boiler). found same but less also last time.
Question: what does cured steam seam look/feels like?
- Injector:whole assembly removed. I noticed that the connection water valve to elbow (the adapter) is a bit loose, so maybe there is the leakage of air entering. Last time I did not have the impression there could be a issue with that. I also used teflon tape for that so maybe next time I will follow the advice and use loctite 243 to seal it.
- Also I noticed that the stem of the water valve can be moved (wiggled) a bit so also there could be a issue.
- still need to seal starter valve i.e. finally make it to work.No matter what I did it‘s still leaking from steam chamber into LP valve chest. I even used lapping compound to make it seal plus stonger spring plus washer to increase preload even more. The pin is loose so it should not stick...

so far so good - or not so good....

Cheers

Elwood