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Help needed with injector

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Post  lynnr on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 11:26 am

Hi Elwood

Yes I did mention the air with water issue. Any air suck on the feed water will kill the injection quickly.
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Post  elwood-59 on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 11:43 am

Hi Lynn,

yes I know Embarassed  Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Should have listened What a Face
When I last mounted the injector it appeared to be quite ok. Only now I noticed that the connection is a bit loose. Remember I don‘t really trust the teflon tape as such so for nect tilme I will use teh loctite thread sealing.
Some more comments: the water valve ball has a hole as big as the body, so no restriction there.
Ordered a new globe valve to get rid of the steam leak there (same as you suggested)
But: on your water valve how much play or „looseness“ do you have there? I can wiggle mine a bit.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  lynnr on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 11:55 am

Mine is lapped in so there is no wiggle. It acts a bit tight as such a good fit.
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Post  elwood-59 on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 12:14 pm

Well, so I will have to disassemble mine to lapp it in, have not seen how to do but will have a closer look tomorrow.

Thanks

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  elwood-59 on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 12:53 pm

Hi Lynn,

just to mention: My water valve is different to yours as you seem to have a water valve made out of hex bar, whereas mine is a cast valve . Will see how to tackle that...

Help needed with injector - Page 3 3942f410

Prior to fitting it last time.

You can also see the Loctite before curing... and yes, the washer still is rattling, so no loctite got there  Very Happy

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  lynnr on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 5:31 pm

Hi Elwood

Your injector troubles are catching. Crystals was playing up all day today. So will be coming off for the water feed to be tightened up as it was pulling air with the water. I now remember I had it off to check the valve bore during the winter.
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Post  elwood-59 on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 5:40 pm

Hi Lynn,

Terribly sorry about Crystal picking up bad habits from Pied Piper, will have a serious word with it tomorrow.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  Simon C on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 6:16 pm

Me to must be an epidemic.
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Post  LiveSteam on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 9:08 pm

Perhaps they are all suffering from Covid Shocked

Catching Others Viral Injector Death Laughing

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Post  elwood-59 on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 9:11 pm

My injector is in quarantine on the work bench to cure it out...
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Post  MikeBelham on Sun 07 Jun 2020, 4:52 pm

Hi Elwood,

When I posted my video I used the YouTube icon in the post editor and gave it a youtube link and the editor did the rest.

If you watch the Youtube clip you want in a browser you can copy and paste the video link from the address bar

Hope that helps

Mike
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Help needed with injector - Page 3 Empty Update but no progress

Post  elwood-59 on Tue 09 Jun 2020, 12:34 pm

Hi All,

In order to solve the issue once and (hopefully) for all I removed the whole assy from tender, so it‘s all apart and will be newly sealed. As the water valve stem seem to be slightly loose, STW put a replacement in the mail. Also during last steaming machine suffered from a badly working injector globe valve that does not fully close and it developed leakages at clack valves and the shutoff valves. Lastly the starter valve still is not fully closing still.
So as I am waiting for the water and globe valve I spend all afternoon yesterday and this morning trying to sort the clack valves. Having a bag of ball bearing grade 3/8“ SS balls I used one to built a lapping tool and will use two more of same batch as clack valve balls.
I got one to seal on air pressure but failed on the other one, or so it seems. I would like to hope that it will seal with temperature but am not very optimistic. Unfortunately both shutoff valves do leak now I am sure they were good in the beginning. Any idea on how to reseat them in the PTFE inserts in the body? I was hoping the tap cock would be conical but no luck.
As I noticed a spot where I missed to put enough Isoflex I need to tackle that too, so jumping from task to task as time allows.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  elwood-59 on Wed 10 Jun 2020, 2:46 pm

Some more elbow grease and also the water pump side clack valve is (almost) leak free. Testing with air I can feel a little presure on my finger, hope this will stop with steam. Now on to seal the PTFE inserts, still no idea how to do that. Any suggestions?

Cheers
Elwood
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Post  elwood-59 on Sat 11 Jul 2020, 5:16 pm

Hi all,

after more than a month here is the update of todays steaming:

as at the last steamings I had issues with the clack valve to boiler seal I switched to paper gasket, now ok-

Injector: All the connections between flange on tender and injector have been sealed off with loctite 243 instead of teflon tape.

Installed a new steam globe valve to make sure I can control steam to injector (the original one has given me some issues.

As ever since first steaming the starter valve has given me trouble. I now made it non-operative by blocking the transfer from steam gallery to LP cylinder. As I assumed that this was the problem that with higher pressure and engine stopped I needed to turn the flywheel by hand in the correct direction in order to move the reverser lever. Furthermore as soon as the engine began to move it just raced off for some seconds. I assumed due pressure built-up from leaking starter valve.

So today I set up to give it a new test. everything went according to plan until I tried injector at about 130 psi. Still the same issue either steam only or mixture of steam and water. loosening the pipe to the clack valve while the injector was running I found some pressure, steam and water hissing out, so I have to assume the injector is (halfway) working. upon assmby I had double checked the ball lift on clack and had set it to 2,4 - 2,45 mm so spot on. (and yes valve was open (and checked!). Tomorrow I will bite the bullet and remove the injector again and this time try to reseal with tape.

As I was reaching 180 psi (and still no injector) I wanted to try and run the engine. Again it was difficult to move the reverser lever and still, as soon as the engine started to turn, it speed up for some turns and then settled to whatever I had set the regulator to. But that only happens after letting the engine rest for a while, if I stop and restart immediately she behaves. So I tend to believe there is yet another leakage somewhere that lets steam built up in the cylinder. Starter valve still out of function - I hope - as else the pressure would have punched a hole in the metal shim I used between two gaskets to seal off the starter valve.

Also I will give the valve adjustment another go as this seems to be the only other thing I can think of with that rude behavior on the engine.

So some issues sorted but some still open.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  Capricorn1 on Mon 20 Jul 2020, 11:03 am

I never used the STW issued injector water valve as it didn't look the part. I have fitted a water valve from Live Steam Models, I also changed the steam valve and fitted one from R. A. Barker the injector did start acting up but after an overhaul by Mr Barker it is now very reliable. If you have fitted the water strainer inside the tender make sure you haven't daubed too much adhesive on the mesh and it is restricting the flow. I have also fitted a breather tube in one corner of the bunker. I have a 3mm dia hole drilled through the bottom of the smokebox to allow condensation to drain out, when you light up on wood resin / sap tends to condense in the cold tubes, if you try to switch to coal before you have a bed of hot embers and a good fire the soot will adhere to the condensate in the tubes and choke the fire. Little and often is the only way. Once the gauge is up to 50psi I get the engine ticking over slowly to help draw the fire.

Although it is the correct size even the neck of the chimney base restricts the flow of combustion - particularly if choked with soot.

My engine now has an improved fire-grate, I have fitted new bar supports that accommodate 15 bars instead of 10, the bars are also 20mm longer as there was a large gap at both the front and back allowing unburnt coal to fall through when on the road.
Yesterday I went out for a second 5 mile road run including several hills with no stops with the new grate, steaming is much improved, far less unburnt coal ends up in the ashpan.
From lighting up, going out on the road and returning to base the engine used about 3/4 of a builders bucket of 50/50 house coal and welsh steam coal, and 20L of water. On the road the damper was either shut or on the first notch.

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Post  Capricorn1 on Mon 20 Jul 2020, 11:17 am

Elwood,

Did you fit a gasket under the regulator plate or simply use a sealant when you fitted it to the cylinder block?
Did you ensure the regulator valve and the plate were lapped in together to get a good seal?
Did you fit the spring to the regulator valve?
Have you checked to make sure with the regulator lever in the closed position that the valve does cover the steam port...

Did you remove the blanking plate on the underside of the cylinder block to clear any residual casting sand before fitting the block to the boiler - if yes are you certain you had a good joint, as a leaking joint could allow steam into the valve chests.

The simpling valve ( or starter if you prefer). Take the spring out, buy one from ebay the same size but made from a thicker wire, lap in the valve (ball), re-assemble and it should be ok, finally throw the STW issued spring in the dustbin.

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Post  elwood-59 on Mon 20 Jul 2020, 3:31 pm

Hi Caprcorn1,

thanks for the ideas:
first of all between my last post and today I did several steam test and changes to my engine.
I now have my second water valve, which seems to be a bit better (the first one was a bit wobbly at the valve stem)
I aslo replaced the injector globe valve by one from RA Barker
The filter ought to be ok, I only put a small bead of epoxy right at the overlap of the filter gaze.
As the inspection cover still is loose on the tender, it should not be air tight, so no issue here, I assume.
drain hole in smoke box. on my agenda, but not done yet.
Bars, mine fit quite good lengthwise, will have a look at your idea of reducing the gap between the bars.
Regulator; „glued“ in with SealSeal. as product sheet of stem seal calls for min 24 h of curing time at 20 . 25 deg, I waited almost a week (in winter) before I did first steming.
The puck and base plate were lapped in with each other, could lift up the base plate by the puck with some liquit in between, so should seal as such.
Sping is in the regulatir valve, valve puck is completely covering hole, I have to move the rof by about 5 mm before the hole is uncovered by the puck.
Replaced original spring with a stronger one, even put a shim (washer) underneat the spring to increase preload. Ball is lapped in with Time Saver, so should be good. just for testing I blocked the LP flange to put the valve out of order.
And yes, did remove the blanking plate at the base of the cylinder block as I had the block pressure washed. at reassembly I put a continuous (and thick) bead of Loctite 510 (suggested by Steve) onto the block. The locktite oozed out around the cover both on the outside (boiler side) as on the inside (used a boroscope for that!) so I think and hope it‘s leak free. And I gave it about 3/4 of a year to cure between fitting and first pressure test.
Where I am right now:
Lynn suggested to remove both the valve chest covers and check if there is a leak from regulator cavety to HP - yes, small but notieceable.
with HP cover on engine runs ok as single with a puff-puff-puff out of LP - as it should.

Before doing anything else I removed puck and base plate again - after cool down! - and found much muck on both th epuck and the base plate. It looks like the muck from boiler etc has started to build up on the surface, making it leaging again. So I lapped it in again, assembled it again last week (SteamSeal at the base plate to cylinder), removed excessive stuff, which came out of the gap and let it rest and cure until now. Wanted to do next check with HP off again to see it there still is steam coming out of regulatoe cavity with regulator closed! Unfortunately Goverment had different plans for me today, but maybe tomorrow.
Removed injector again, as last time I had the feeling as if it would be ALMOST starting to set off, but only had a lot of whitish foam like water with very small air bubbles. Removing the whole assembly I found the connection between elbow and adapter to be more loose than the rest, it was easy to unscrew, much easier than the rest of the connections, so this led me to belive that the seal was not as good as it should have been. Resassembled but this time used teflon take and plenty of it, hoping to cure it onece and for all.
Firing, a black art I still have to master, it seems, but it‘s getting better slowly.

Cheers
Elwood
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Help needed with injector - Page 3 Empty first drive after 1489 days since start

Post  elwood-59 on Wed 29 Jul 2020, 11:07 pm

Hi all,

today finally I managed to drive PIED PIPER for the first time bounce  bounce  bounce .

(almost) all of the issues are sorted, injector starts to work partially. Regulator behaves. Found some bits and pieces that need attention but that was to be expected.

So 1489 days after picking up the first kits at STW I can call myself a engine owner, finally. Took me longer than expected but a broken hand almost 2 years ago stopped me for some time (and still does), been sorting out the issues or should I say haunted the gremlins in some parts did slow me down but in the end all is well. Government and job put some burden on me, too, but  cyclops

Still struggling with the video I took with the GoPro, trying to upload, it's 2,3 GB for 4 min  Embarassed  it but will do as soon as possible, need to cut out license plates of some cars I passed (data protection laws in G) and then trying my luck with Youtube.

Thanks to all who have helped me with suggestions and advice, really appreciate it.

Hopefully I can meet some of you next year at some rally - if covid-19 allows us to travel and meet freely again.

Stay safe, thanks

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  Stu 18 on Sat 01 Aug 2020, 12:21 pm

I thought I'd add to this thread, rather than start a new one in SCC.

I've only fired up my SCC four or five times, but have yet to succeed in running the injector.
I've got 100-150psi. My clack no longer leaks, following a bit of judicious ball-whacking. My replacement globe valve doesn't leak.
I open the water valve and get a steady flow, and the injector is not hot.
As I open the globe valve, I just end up with a large amount of water gushing out of the injector overflow.
Thinking maybe I'd been a bit heavy-handed, I shut off the steam, let a bit of water through to ensure the injector was cool again, then tickled the valve open again. However, all I get is a varying amount of water out of the overflow depending how far open my globe valve is.

I've watched Lynn's videos; it doesn't seem that difficult to get it working. I've read through this thread, but I can't tell what the symptom other people have had is. Is it the same thing?

Stu

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Post  elwood-59 on Sat 01 Aug 2020, 12:32 pm

Hi Stu,

sounds just like mine. I learned the hard way (taking it apart and reassemble it) that it‘s of utmost importance to get the connections as leak free as possible. The problem is that we are looking at air leakage with vacuum. A connection unter pressure will (partially) seal itself, erspecially with temperature and water being pressed into it, vacuum leaks are much worse.
So all I can suggest so far is to seal the connectors with as much Teflon tape as possible (even add a bit more for good measurement) and NEVER EVER unscrew the connection for adjustment. If you need, remove it completely and start anew. On PIED PIPER I am still struggling and have not been 100 % sucessful either. Doing it again seems to be the idea. Just took it apart (for the umptheens time)

Sorry to have no better advice, this is only what I learned and was instructed to do (by Lynn and others).

We will get there!

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  Stu 18 on Sat 01 Aug 2020, 12:40 pm

Thanks Elwood. I guess I'll just dismantle it all and put it all back together.
Did you dismantle the injector itself too?

Stu

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Post  elwood-59 on Sat 01 Aug 2020, 12:58 pm

Hi Stu

I did once, not a big thing but did not change anything. if you shake your injector and hear a rattling sound => the check valve is ok, needs to be. Other than that you could put it in vinegar or citric acid (like cleaner for your coffee machine) if you are really deperate, but as yours is still (brand)new, don’t think its really needed.

Bruce (of RA Barker) suggested using Loctite 243 as sealant; I tried it but seem to have used not enough on one connector as it was „loose“ at next disassembly. But at least it went from water only or steam/water mixture to water with tiny air bubbles - like a white foamy bath -  so I assumed I was just a tiny vacuum leakage. Will have to get to that again. Just remember, whatever you use do not let anything get into /behind the connection, leave the first thread or two clean of anything, so the otherwise sheared of end of tape will find it‘s way to the most harmful area and wreck harvoc there Very Happy

Good luck

Elwood


Last edited by elwood-59 on Sat 01 Aug 2020, 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Post  iain on Sat 01 Aug 2020, 5:39 pm

if you think you have issues with air leaks, try the injector whilst running a hose on the joints. if it works with the hose on then you have leaks.

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