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Advice on a 4" and help

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Post  dacgarrett87 on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 7:20 am

Hello, I'm a Massachusetts based user and would like to know a couple of tips and also have a couple of questions of what comes with a full 4" Burell kit. I plan to purchase and build one in the future.

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Post  Midwest Steam on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 12:36 pm

Ask away, we don’t bite
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Post  Simon C on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 4:10 pm

dacgarrett87 wrote:Hello, I'm a Massachusetts based user and would like to know a couple of tips and also have a couple of questions of what comes with a full 4" Burell kit. I plan to purchase and build one in the future.

You will need to supply paint and a small amount of JB weld to complete the build.
Then you will need coal and water to run the finished engine, yes even the firing irons are included.
Simon C
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Post  dacgarrett87 on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 5:48 pm

Simon C wrote:
dacgarrett87 wrote:Hello, I'm a Massachusetts based user and would like to know a couple of tips and also have a couple of questions of what comes with a full 4" Burell kit. I plan to purchase and build one in the future.

You will need to supply paint and a small amount of JB weld to complete the build.
Then you will need coal and water to run the finished engine, yes even the firing irons are included.
Simon C

Thanks, also what coal would be best for use with a 4", also in some videos online I see that there are pump hoses installed on the right side are those included as well? And is a seat supplied? Thank you again for a response. Also what would be a good paint to use?

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Post  Midwest Steam on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 6:21 pm

I’ll add to the shopping list. Basic set of tools (wrenches and ratchets), set of Allen keys, corded drill with drill bits, angle grinder with flap wheels (not necessary but helps clean up parts). There are many other tools that will come in handy like pliers and hammers and such.

There should be a hose for the belly tank, you might have to pick up some plumbing parts to make it a 90 degree angle

Yes it includes a single seat, you can ask STW for a double

I’m using Restoleum and Van Sickle oil based enamels with one shot enamel for the stripes, craftmaster is a little difficult to get ahold of on this side of the Atlantic
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Post  dacgarrett87 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 4:33 am

Thanks, Also what oil should I use?

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Post  Midwest Steam on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 1:14 pm

dacgarrett87 wrote:Thanks, Also what oil should I use?

There’s a good number of people that swear by Morris lubricant sold by Heritage Steam Supplies, whether or not they can ship oils to us folks in the states is something I haven’t asked them about yet. A heavy weigh steam oil and bearing oil will be needed.
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Post  LiveSteam on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 6:49 pm

Midwest Steam wrote: A heavy weigh steam oil and bearing oil will be needed.

Or if you can get it their universal stuff https://www.heritagesteamsupplies.co.uk/oil-greases/universal-steam-oil.html saves having to mess about with two different oils, been using it for the past 5yrs on the Agri and very pleased with the results and I know others using it are very happy with it.

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Post  dacgarrett87 on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 11:52 pm

Midwest Steam wrote:
dacgarrett87 wrote:Thanks, Also what oil should I use?

There’s a good number of people that swear by Morris lubricant sold by Heritage Steam Supplies, whether or not they can ship oils to us folks in the states is something I haven’t asked them about yet. A heavy weigh steam oil and bearing oil will be needed.

Thanks for the suggestion, however, I have literally looked everywhere I could, and couldn't find any steam specific oil, am I missing something, oh and apologies for my hiatus, 2020 has me caught up.

Edit: When I said I couldn't find oil, I meant locally (In the US)

Edit 2: I've noticed that some people don't always have a whistle or steam siren on their engines, and was wondering if you have to specifically ask for a whistle or if it's included with the kits.

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Post  lynnr on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 2:44 pm

Hi

The kits come with everything you need to be ready for steaming. All fixtures and fittings including, seat, a standard single tone bell whistle (some people just put a blanking plug in), all safety related devices, water lifting hose, (think still supplied) coal shovel and poker.

It is basically the case "Just add water and coal". Yes you will need hand tools etc for building.

Consumables.

Steam oil  http://www.hallettoil.co.uk/steam-oils/ has a good explanation of each type of oil. If in doubt email or if timezone allows call. Very helpful and they do send overseas. On Crystal, I use SCO680CT Compounded steam oil. as she is 180PSI compounding. I use a separate bearing oil by preference. 25lt drums of each have done 8 years of lots of running time so far and still plenty in the drums.

If you contact Keith through http://www.vintagemachinery.org/ he does a lot of steam related work with a museum in the States. So would be a good contact to finding oil suppliers.

Coal. I use a "dry steam coal" for personal use around the house and local driving jollies. Also less smoky to keep the neighbours happy. It does require a "hot" fire and can drop on you if your not careful. Rally field is very variable and is often the case, if it fits in and burns it will do.
When test steaming during the final building of Crystal I actually used basic house coal doubles (about 2"x1" sizing) This gave a "cooler" more forgiving fire which can be perked up without too much trouble. So good for learning.

Hope this helps.  
For videos I have a youtube channel where I have a number of How to's.  
https://www.youtube.com/highlandsteam
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Post  dacgarrett87 on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 9:23 pm

lynnr wrote:Hi

The kits come with everything you need to be ready for steaming. All fixtures and fittings including, seat, a standard single tone bell whistle (some people just put a blanking plug in), all safety related devices, water lifting hose, (think still supplied) coal shovel and poker.

It is basically the case "Just add water and coal". Yes you will need hand tools etc for building.

Consumables.

Steam oil  http://www.hallettoil.co.uk/steam-oils/ has a good explanation of each type of oil. If in doubt email or if timezone allows call. Very helpful and they do send overseas. On Crystal, I use SCO680CT Compounded steam oil. as she is 180PSI compounding. I use a separate bearing oil by preference. 25lt drums of each have done 8 years of lots of running time so far and still plenty in the drums.

If you contact Keith through http://www.vintagemachinery.org/ he does a lot of steam related work with a museum in the States. So would be a good contact to finding oil suppliers.

Coal. I use a "dry steam coal" for personal use around the house and local driving jollies. Also less smoky to keep the neighbours happy. It does require a "hot" fire and can drop on you if your not careful. Rally field is very variable and is often the case, if it fits in and burns it will do.
When test steaming during the final building of Crystal I actually used basic house coal doubles (about 2"x1" sizing) This gave a "cooler" more forgiving fire which can be perked up without too much trouble. So good for learning.

Hope this helps.  
For videos I have a youtube channel where I have a number of How to's.  
https://www.youtube.com/highlandsteam

Thanks!

Also quick question: could I hypothetically use a wood only fire? I've heard that on farms farmers would use whatever they could find as a source of fuel and I want to if that could apply to 4"

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Post  Midwest Steam on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 10:41 pm

Mobil makes 600W oil which would work good for lubricating the cylinders and valves, it’s straight oil and not mixed with anything. Don’t have any experience with compound steam oil so can’t say it’s good or bad, believe some compound oils are mixed with tallow. Thinking it would leave behind a sticky mess when it’s heated up and cooled down, but again that’s more speculation. Haven’t quite figured out what to use for the axles and the motion oil but I have a few ideas that could work and readily available.

Wood would work but doesn’t burn as well or hot as coal. Coal isn’t too expensive and I’ve found a place that sells bagged coal, not sure how it compares to Welch dry coal but it comes from W. Virginia which is know for its coal (http://www.penncoal.com/blacksmith-live-steam.html). A wood fire is a good way to start and bring the boiler up to temperature up slowly before switching to coal.
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Post  dacgarrett87 on Sun 25 Oct 2020, 12:30 pm

By the way whilst I'm active, where would be a good place to get nameplates, I have done a little digging online and found a common manufacturer, JLD Fittings, but I'm not entirely sure yet if they ship to the states.

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Post  lynnr on Sun 25 Oct 2020, 2:31 pm

Hi

Wood does not have the same calorific value as coal. So when out on the road running you will literally vaporise the wood quicker than you can put it in the fire. Wood burning traction engines have much bigger fireboxes same goes for the plantation engines which ran on the sugar cane residue.

Sitting at the "peg" does work on wood alone. I did it at a science festival one year. But as soon as you need to move the wood collapses in to nothing. Also clogged up the tubes and chimney. When I opened the regulator to move off I got a 4" solid black column of soot out of the chimney.
Never got a picture of it though ;-(

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Post  dacgarrett87 on Sat 31 Oct 2020, 6:08 pm

Just to put this out there, would the smokebox work with any other colors than black or silver? Or would it be not worth the effort of painting it any other color due to soot?

Edit: I was able to find Mobil's 600W Oil, would that be all I need, or would I need another oil for other parts?

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Post  Midwest Steam on Sat 31 Oct 2020, 11:28 pm

The thing to consider with the smokebox is the temperature, you’ll never see a working steam engine that doesn’t have a smoke box painted black. Don’t believe black will discolor very easily, plus many builders use high temperature spray paint intended for painting BBQ grills/ovens since it’s better at with standing the intense heat from the fire. If you wanted to paint it in bright pink no one will stop you lol!, but it would just peel off if it’s regular spray paint

The 600w oil is intended for the cylinders, its as thick as molasses but thins out in higher temperature. For the axles and bearings it wouldn’t be the best choice, you would want a thinner oil.
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Post  dacgarrett87 on Sun 01 Nov 2020, 3:27 am

Would Motor oil be a good second oil, as it is lighter weight?

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Post  LiveSteam on Mon 02 Nov 2020, 6:58 pm

Motor oil is really too thin for our bearings, you could get away with it short term I suspect but you'll need lots of it and you'll end up wearing more that it staying on things like the big end Wink

These folks seem to indicate they do Morris, might be an idea to give them a should and see if you can get some universal Morris Steam oil
https://motorcarsltd.com/morris-lubricants-usa


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Post  hydro9 on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 4:17 pm

Just a word of caution on oil for the cylinder.
The key factor for the choice of oil for the cylinder is that the oil is carried into the cylinder by the steam.
So, it's not just viscosity that is important, it is how the oil copes when mixed with high temperature steam. Ordinary bearing oils tend to be mineral based and steam turns them into a non-lubricating emulsion. Oils designed for use with steam tend to be organic fat based with good lubrication properties in the steam environment.

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Post  dacgarrett87 on Tue 10 Nov 2020, 11:27 pm

I want to know how people can get such perfect lines as part of there paint designs, I don't think I could do such perfect lines (fine motor skills, which makes my hands shaky).

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Post  lynnr on Wed 11 Nov 2020, 10:37 am

Hi

On Crystal I used Finess lining tape. Have a look at my build thread Lynn Robinson Showman.

The smokebox paint is traditionally black as was often painted with range black. A quick wipe with the oily rag removed dirt and polished up the paint. Also remember the smokebox and chimney paint is a "consumable" item and will burn off on a hard working engine quickly. Blackbeard's original owner had a long 1:6 hill and is almost guaranteed to remove most paint off the smokebox and chimney after 1 run!

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Post  Midwest Steam on Wed 11 Nov 2020, 5:45 pm

dacgarrett87 wrote:I want to know how people can get such perfect lines as part of there paint designs, I don't think I could do such perfect lines (fine motor skills, which makes my hands shaky).

As Lynn said, Finesse Tape and OneShot Sign Writing Enamel. Just keep it between the tape and do both colors at the same time with different brushes.

Mobil 600W super cylinder oil’s intended use is for steam cylinders, not sure what kind of additives are used but that’s going to be the oil I’ll use in the mechanical lubricator.

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Post  dacgarrett87 on Thu 12 Nov 2020, 10:25 am

Midwest Steam wrote:



Mobil 600W super cylinder oil’s intended use is for steam cylinders, not sure what kind of additives are used but that’s going to be the oil I’ll use in the mechanical lubricator.


I did go onto Heritage Supply and they do ship overseas, so I can order their universal steam oil. Oh and thanks to you and Lynn for helping me.

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Post  dacgarrett87 on Thu 12 Nov 2020, 3:05 pm

Really quick, how hot does a 4 inch run?

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Post  Simon C on Thu 12 Nov 2020, 6:28 pm

dacgarrett87 wrote:Really quick, how hot does a 4 inch run?

If you go for a DCC the temperature of the steam at 180 psi would be 190C/375F.
If you go for an aggie the boiler pressure comes down to 120 psi and the temp of the steam would be 175C/345F.
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