Adjusting the valves or trying to
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Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi,
Finally managed to get all eccentric rods installed, the expansion levers etc. so to be able to turn over the engine and to prepare for running it on air (still a bit to fit until then but...)
Crankshaft turns over nicely until it locked up suddenly. Searching I found the HP valve rod to hit the front end of valve chamber in cylinder block. Further checks showed the adjuster nut on HP valve spindle resp. valve rod not being fully in. Used the rear nut on the slide valve side to turn over the valve rod, but could manage only until about a gap if 3,5 mm still there. Not enough for free movement.
As some days ago I had furgotten to mount the locknut unto the valve rod and being forced to take half of the motion apart again, I am not too keen to go back again with the motion now completly fitted.
Can I remove the whole valve spindle with lift links etc still installed on HP side to slide out the valve spindle and the valve rod to see where the problem is at. When I had it all apart I did not check for the depth of thread into the valve spindle not expecting such a tight fit in the first place
Any suggestion?
Elwood
Finally managed to get all eccentric rods installed, the expansion levers etc. so to be able to turn over the engine and to prepare for running it on air (still a bit to fit until then but...)
Crankshaft turns over nicely until it locked up suddenly. Searching I found the HP valve rod to hit the front end of valve chamber in cylinder block. Further checks showed the adjuster nut on HP valve spindle resp. valve rod not being fully in. Used the rear nut on the slide valve side to turn over the valve rod, but could manage only until about a gap if 3,5 mm still there. Not enough for free movement.
As some days ago I had furgotten to mount the locknut unto the valve rod and being forced to take half of the motion apart again, I am not too keen to go back again with the motion now completly fitted.
Can I remove the whole valve spindle with lift links etc still installed on HP side to slide out the valve spindle and the valve rod to see where the problem is at. When I had it all apart I did not check for the depth of thread into the valve spindle not expecting such a tight fit in the first place
Any suggestion?
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi
The quickest way I can think of is pull the pin out of the die block and one end of the expansion link to reach rods. This should allow the expansion link to swivel out the way and allow the valve spindle and yoke to be pulled all together. (As long as the spindle retaining nut will pass through the bearings)
I set my valve puck on the spindle (remember the puck needs to move ever so slightly) and filed the end of the spindle to a closeness to the nuts. I also on the HP side used a dremel and created a small hollow on the valve chest side as extra. Also remember this is when cold as when hot the block will be moved forward a bit due to expansion of the boiler.
The quickest way I can think of is pull the pin out of the die block and one end of the expansion link to reach rods. This should allow the expansion link to swivel out the way and allow the valve spindle and yoke to be pulled all together. (As long as the spindle retaining nut will pass through the bearings)
I set my valve puck on the spindle (remember the puck needs to move ever so slightly) and filed the end of the spindle to a closeness to the nuts. I also on the HP side used a dremel and created a small hollow on the valve chest side as extra. Also remember this is when cold as when hot the block will be moved forward a bit due to expansion of the boiler.
lynnr- Number of posts : 3242
Age : 55
Location : Highland, 4inch showman
Registration date : 2010-08-06
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
I had the same problem on my block, where it hits there is plenty of meat on the casting so just used a 12mm drill to create a hollow for the end of the spindle to go into. It's not very deep 3 - 4mm. That was on the old blind bore blocks though, when I fitted one of the new 'see through' blocks I didn't have a problem.
Steve Traill- Number of posts : 800
Age : 67
Location : Illogan Redruth Cornwall
Registration date : 2008-06-29
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi,
Just a quick feedback:
Did as you suggested, Lynn, took the pins out at the two links, Forward and Reverse and put them aside, removed the pin out of the yoke and remove valve rod in toto. I noticed that the thread in the valve spindle is not deep enough to take up all of the valve rod thread. Was able to cure that by CAREFULLY retapping the thread, now valve spindle goes in al the way - good.
Reassembled everything and - still same issue - the rod still hits the front of the valve chest. I do not really fancy drilling a hole into the cylinder block with a drill or a dremel, only if I needed to...
Called it a day!
What do I miss....
Cheers
Elwood
Just a quick feedback:
Did as you suggested, Lynn, took the pins out at the two links, Forward and Reverse and put them aside, removed the pin out of the yoke and remove valve rod in toto. I noticed that the thread in the valve spindle is not deep enough to take up all of the valve rod thread. Was able to cure that by CAREFULLY retapping the thread, now valve spindle goes in al the way - good.
Reassembled everything and - still same issue - the rod still hits the front of the valve chest. I do not really fancy drilling a hole into the cylinder block with a drill or a dremel, only if I needed to...
Called it a day!
What do I miss....
Cheers
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi Elwood
Also remember the "cut back" slots are set to the valve movement and the reversing lever does not go all the way to the front or back of the quadrant. On Crystal if I take the reversing lever past the last notch on the quadrant the handle will be pulled out of my hand as the rear of the valve puck will hit the side of the valve chest.
Also remember the "cut back" slots are set to the valve movement and the reversing lever does not go all the way to the front or back of the quadrant. On Crystal if I take the reversing lever past the last notch on the quadrant the handle will be pulled out of my hand as the rear of the valve puck will hit the side of the valve chest.
lynnr- Number of posts : 3242
Age : 55
Location : Highland, 4inch showman
Registration date : 2010-08-06
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi Lynn,
Have to confess I have not mounted the reverser lever (yet) as I need to have the tender painted and then mounted to have something to mount the reversing lever to.
HMMMMM could be my mistake there - I hope - as of now the die blocks are all the way to the end of the slots of the expansion links, as gravity would make. Hope this where I goofed up
Will try to rig up a reach rod from some piece of flat steel so I can play until tender and reverser lever are fitted. You have, by any chance the possibility to measure the reach rod movement fully forward to fully back, as much as your reverser lever would allow? I can find center position with die blocks in the middle. So that measurement would give me a indication of how much travel I‘d need on the link.
Thanks for looking into it.
Cheers
Elwood
Have to confess I have not mounted the reverser lever (yet) as I need to have the tender painted and then mounted to have something to mount the reversing lever to.
HMMMMM could be my mistake there - I hope - as of now the die blocks are all the way to the end of the slots of the expansion links, as gravity would make. Hope this where I goofed up
Will try to rig up a reach rod from some piece of flat steel so I can play until tender and reverser lever are fitted. You have, by any chance the possibility to measure the reach rod movement fully forward to fully back, as much as your reverser lever would allow? I can find center position with die blocks in the middle. So that measurement would give me a indication of how much travel I‘d need on the link.
Thanks for looking into it.
Cheers
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Brrrrrrr
It is cold out there.!!!
Crystals revering lever travel is 7cm from front of notch to back of notch at the other end.
It is cold out there.!!!
Crystals revering lever travel is 7cm from front of notch to back of notch at the other end.
lynnr- Number of posts : 3242
Age : 55
Location : Highland, 4inch showman
Registration date : 2010-08-06
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Thanks Lynn,
Did not think about the weather up there, sorry.
Will check out later & come back on it
Thanks again
Cheers
Elwood
Did not think about the weather up there, sorry.
Will check out later & come back on it
Thanks again
Cheers
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
https://traction.forumotion.com/t2697-valve-gear-problems
Hi Elwood
you may find some answers at the above link
Simon C
Hi Elwood
you may find some answers at the above link
Simon C
Simon C- Number of posts : 303
Location : Derby
Registration date : 2017-07-07
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi Simon,
Have to confess I did not use search function, sorry.
Yes does answer some questions, although reading it (again) I was under the impression it was an issues for the “old” block and not for the “see through” block as mine.
Thanks for the link. will try tomorrow.
Cheers
Elwood
Have to confess I did not use search function, sorry.
Yes does answer some questions, although reading it (again) I was under the impression it was an issues for the “old” block and not for the “see through” block as mine.
Thanks for the link. will try tomorrow.
Cheers
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
My block is the same design as yours Elwood and as Mark is at the same part of his build as me I think he also has the “see through block”
I would say at this point that if you don't have your reversing lever fitted then its not worth the risk of airing up for a run.
I had around 2 bar in the boiler once when the engine turned over and it garbed the spanner I was using, it was determined not to let go until I doped the pressure to zero.
I consider myself lucky it didn't get my fingers or bend anything, I gave myself a real good telling off and haven't taken risks with it since.
these engines may be small and sweet but if it goes bad it can go real bad, please take care.
Simon
I would say at this point that if you don't have your reversing lever fitted then its not worth the risk of airing up for a run.
I had around 2 bar in the boiler once when the engine turned over and it garbed the spanner I was using, it was determined not to let go until I doped the pressure to zero.
I consider myself lucky it didn't get my fingers or bend anything, I gave myself a real good telling off and haven't taken risks with it since.
these engines may be small and sweet but if it goes bad it can go real bad, please take care.
Simon
Simon C- Number of posts : 303
Location : Derby
Registration date : 2017-07-07
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi Simon,
so we are sitting in the same boat, seemingly.
My intention was and still is to finalize the motion and being able to turn over the crankshaft. Will have a look at the valve rod again, had it out this morning, hoping the extra 3,5 mm gained with recutting the threads might be enough, but seemingly not so.
As for your advice not to run it on air as it is right now, thanks, point taken and noted. Always good to have a second thought of somebody else, who already has had a (bad) experience.
Thanks for the info and suggestions
Cheers
Elwood
so we are sitting in the same boat, seemingly.
My intention was and still is to finalize the motion and being able to turn over the crankshaft. Will have a look at the valve rod again, had it out this morning, hoping the extra 3,5 mm gained with recutting the threads might be enough, but seemingly not so.
As for your advice not to run it on air as it is right now, thanks, point taken and noted. Always good to have a second thought of somebody else, who already has had a (bad) experience.
Thanks for the info and suggestions
Cheers
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi Simon,
As a side thought: with die blocks at about center position (i.e. neutral on reverser lever) where did you find your sliding valves to be at? Center position or off-center? Trying to find out how much and, if possible, not too much to shorten the valve rod. Or am I looking at it from the wrong side?
Just wondering, as SWMBO set up different plans for me for today & tomorrow, so cannot sneak out to work on Pied Piper.
Cheers
Elwood
As a side thought: with die blocks at about center position (i.e. neutral on reverser lever) where did you find your sliding valves to be at? Center position or off-center? Trying to find out how much and, if possible, not too much to shorten the valve rod. Or am I looking at it from the wrong side?
Just wondering, as SWMBO set up different plans for me for today & tomorrow, so cannot sneak out to work on Pied Piper.
Cheers
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
its flipping cold in the middle of the country as well as in Lynn land Elwood but hope this helps John Denis didn't like his bed clothes getting taken off.
as the valve covers are off at the moment I have taken these for you.
OK with the reversing lever in the neutral position:-
" />
now with the leaver in the full forward position and the crank rotated to put the valve in the fully forward position:-
" />
and again with the leaver in the full reverse position and the crank rotated to put the valve in the fully back position:-
you may notice that the port is less open in reverse, this is a compromise based on it fully opens when going forwards the direction you mainly travel so optimum setting and as you don't go around in reverse then its good-enough. Thanks to Lynn for that info.
I am sorry to the purists that I haven't polished the brass bits for this impromptu photo call.
J.D. is now back fast asleep with his bed clothes tucked in an his heater on.
as the valve covers are off at the moment I have taken these for you.
OK with the reversing lever in the neutral position:-
" />
now with the leaver in the full forward position and the crank rotated to put the valve in the fully forward position:-
" />
and again with the leaver in the full reverse position and the crank rotated to put the valve in the fully back position:-
you may notice that the port is less open in reverse, this is a compromise based on it fully opens when going forwards the direction you mainly travel so optimum setting and as you don't go around in reverse then its good-enough. Thanks to Lynn for that info.
I am sorry to the purists that I haven't polished the brass bits for this impromptu photo call.
J.D. is now back fast asleep with his bed clothes tucked in an his heater on.
Simon C- Number of posts : 303
Location : Derby
Registration date : 2017-07-07
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi Simon,
thanks for braving the low temperatures, seems like we are suffering from the same weather, but, then again, it‘s winter time, although we had about +10 deg two weeks ago...
And sorry to wake up John Dennis, did not expect to receive pictures that quickly (although I cannot see the first and third one, have to have a closer look on my computer (right now only looking on my iPad))
Back to original question:
When I check my valve (LP seems ok as far as hitting anything goes ) the valve in (or around) neutral has a large opening at the rear port so I assume the rod is off quite a bit - about 5 mm to the front minimum.
Gives me a rough idea.
Thanks for the pictures
Cheers
Elwood
thanks for braving the low temperatures, seems like we are suffering from the same weather, but, then again, it‘s winter time, although we had about +10 deg two weeks ago...
And sorry to wake up John Dennis, did not expect to receive pictures that quickly (although I cannot see the first and third one, have to have a closer look on my computer (right now only looking on my iPad))
Back to original question:
When I check my valve (LP seems ok as far as hitting anything goes ) the valve in (or around) neutral has a large opening at the rear port so I assume the rod is off quite a bit - about 5 mm to the front minimum.
Gives me a rough idea.
Thanks for the pictures
Cheers
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
If you need me to repeat the process on the L.P. valve chest I can as that side cover is also off for winter.
As my boiler inspection is due any time now I can not say how long it will remain that way.
Simon
As my boiler inspection is due any time now I can not say how long it will remain that way.
Simon
Simon C- Number of posts : 303
Location : Derby
Registration date : 2017-07-07
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Hi Simon,
Yes, please, if you could spare a minute and are with J.D. anyways, but no need to hurry. Plan to rework the valve rod mybe on the weekend, (if I am allowed ). I was just wondering about the position of the valve and thought you might know. Receiving pictures showing it is more that I expected.
Thanks again
Cheers
Elwood
Yes, please, if you could spare a minute and are with J.D. anyways, but no need to hurry. Plan to rework the valve rod mybe on the weekend, (if I am allowed ). I was just wondering about the position of the valve and thought you might know. Receiving pictures showing it is more that I expected.
Thanks again
Cheers
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
LP forward.
" />
LP neutral
" />
LP reverse
" />
And back to bed
" />
Simon
" />
LP neutral
" />
LP reverse
" />
And back to bed
" />
Simon
Simon C- Number of posts : 303
Location : Derby
Registration date : 2017-07-07
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
Thanks!
Elwood
Elwood
elwood-59- Number of posts : 300
Location : Germany-NRW
Registration date : 2014-12-17
Re: Adjusting the valves or trying to
During my build I found both valve spindles were too long and bottomed out onto the side of the steam chest.
The solution was just to run a die down to extend the M8 thread which screws into the valve spindle guide and shorten the rod.
You can't really check the valve gear until its all assembled - reversing lever in position.
Once it's all together you can check the valve events - position of the valves to the steam ports while the engine is cold, this will allow you to run on air.
When it comes to the first steaming and the engine is hot and up to around 100psi, take the valve chest covers off and turn the engine over by hand checking each valve opening in both forward gear and reverse, you can adjust the valve spindles in relation to the valve guides if required.
You'll also be able see if the simpling valve (starting valve if you prefer) is leaking.
So with the above in mind fit the valve chest covers and gaskets dry, or with a little cylinder oil rubbed on them.
The solution was just to run a die down to extend the M8 thread which screws into the valve spindle guide and shorten the rod.
You can't really check the valve gear until its all assembled - reversing lever in position.
Once it's all together you can check the valve events - position of the valves to the steam ports while the engine is cold, this will allow you to run on air.
When it comes to the first steaming and the engine is hot and up to around 100psi, take the valve chest covers off and turn the engine over by hand checking each valve opening in both forward gear and reverse, you can adjust the valve spindles in relation to the valve guides if required.
You'll also be able see if the simpling valve (starting valve if you prefer) is leaking.
So with the above in mind fit the valve chest covers and gaskets dry, or with a little cylinder oil rubbed on them.
Capricorn1- Number of posts : 119
Location : West Yorkshire.
Registration date : 2013-07-22
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