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noisy middle gear

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sonick45
Kevster
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Post  Kevster Mon 09 May 2016, 6:15 am

Hi all,
I have a noisy middle gear and was wondering how much to raise the crank.
those that have eliminated the noise what is your working clearance now.
like to compare what I have now and where I need to get to.
many thanks
Kev
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Post  sonick45 Mon 09 May 2016, 10:27 am

I'm not near my engine to give you a measurement but I used a coke can to shim under Crank till my gear quietened down. A few mill. Not sure if I used one or two slithers.

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Post  lynnr Mon 09 May 2016, 10:44 am

two layers MacEwans Export can.
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Post  Kevster Mon 09 May 2016, 7:39 pm

Thanks all,
I will take it apart,insert some shims and see what happens.
Thanks
Kev
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Post  elwood-59 Sat 15 May 2021, 2:16 pm

Hi,

sorry for digging out this old post, but it seems like I am suffering from same issue. So far I‘ve been running in 1st gear only. I tried 2nd gear lately only to find a noise in middle gear, first I thought it‘s the 3rd gear fork rubbing on the teeth as I had this before but not this time. So I assume I have to follow your steps, too.

Kev, did you manage to solve with two shims of beer can strips?

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  lynnr Sat 15 May 2021, 6:17 pm

Hi Elwood

Yes shim the gear side crank bearing with a sliver of bear can. I had to do the same on Crystal to “Depth” the gears.
For me 1st is noisy but not destructive. 2nd and 3rd are basically silent.
lynnr
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Post  elwood-59 Sat 15 May 2021, 6:27 pm

Hi Lynn,

in order to fit the shim, did you just lift the crankshaft a bit, or did you have to remove it completely, as you did when replacing the bend crankshaft?
Just wondering: do it now or to postpone it until winter…

First gear is ok, no noise, only when I shift to second..And I can drive in 1st, quick enough for me at this time.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  lynnr Sat 15 May 2021, 7:31 pm

I just raised it up as the modified 3rd gear boss allows the whole lot to be lifted up as one. You will need to remove the gear selectors.
lynnr
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Post  elwood-59 Sat 15 May 2021, 8:15 pm

Thanks for the info, still undecided if I tackle it now or wait until winter, as I plan to remove some parts like motion for nickel plating which would make lifting much easier.

Thanks again.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  elwood-59 Mon 17 May 2021, 2:10 pm

Hi Lynn.

just been out to PIED PIPER to check out. Removed RH bearing cup to check, put it in gear and found some light vertical movement in bearing when turning over the crankshaft, but only in second gear. So it looks like first and third are ok - no noise in either of them.

But looking at the space to tuck in the shims under the bearing, I assume I have to raise the crankshaft by about 10 cm to clear the bearing and to lift the bottom bearing out of the housing. Might be easier to do when crankshaft is removed entirely.

Just thinking…

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  lynnr Mon 17 May 2021, 2:26 pm

Yes as you suspected 2nd is depthed too deep and is over meshing.
It would be simpler lifting fully out but can be done by just clearing the bearing flange from the casting and slipping a shim in.
lynnr
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Post  elwood-59 Tue 18 May 2021, 12:54 pm

Little update,

just removed some parts in order to see if I can lift up the crankshaft. Removed shifter forks, LH wheel and flywheel plus gear for the water pump (just to get it out of the way!). After removing both bearing cups I found LH (the round bearing) having turned in the boss, instead of being front and back with the oil holes on top, it‘s now up and down. Will look into that later.
What worries me more is that, although I can now lift the crankshaft a bit with the thrid gear cutout at the bottom the HP throw of the crankshaft is at mid stroke pointing up thus reducing the gap between spectacle plate hole and con rod. I hope there still is enough room to lift the crankshaft enough to take out or at least lift the lower bearing to slip in the spacer, I used a old Carlings to fabricate the spacersto keep it consistent Very Happy

But I think I need to call for assistance - have my sons to come over to lift the crankshaft and keeping it up whilst I have my fingers between the gears and bearings.

If all goes wrong I might remove the nuts from con rods and the four eccentic rods, then the CS should be free to be lifted out in one piece. Aka plan B

I‘ll keep you posted

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  Steve Traill Tue 18 May 2021, 7:19 pm

I thought the left hand bearing had the potential to rotate so inserted a small pin in the housing & drilled the bearing so it can't rotate. A small cut down panel pin is all that's needed. It keeps the oiler hole located correctly as well.
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Post  elwood-59 Tue 18 May 2021, 8:41 pm

Actually my main concern really was the oiler holes not lining up, not ( so much) the rotation as such. but it should be avoided nevertheless. When I first assembled the crankshaft i put some strips of paper unter the bushing to keep it rotating, hoping it to be enough. As a second idea I was thinking about using bearing locking fluid.

Will have a look into your idea tomorrow. Might also do that.
Cheers

Elwood
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Post  elwood-59 Thu 20 May 2021, 12:14 pm

Update:

in the end I disconnected both the con rods and the eccentric rods (even removed the eccentric caps in the end just to have more space) and lifted out the crankshaft.

Added two shims as suggested and thought I still had some noise in second gear when turning over by hand. Just for good measurement I added another two shims and refitted. The noise seems to be gone now, I only have some noise from second shaft gear to diff. nothing serious.

And now I have some gear backlash in all three gears about 0,5 mm, was not there before, I think. Plus I can easily move the gears to get them to mesh with their counterpart. Just adjust tooth to gap and in the gear goes, no hunting for right spot as before.

If my memory is correct the thickness of the shim should be about 0,1 to 0,15mm each, might check with micrometer just to know, but in the end it seems to work now …

Any comments?

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  elwood-59 Fri 21 May 2021, 9:40 am

Hi Steve,

been giving your idea much thought. I just don‘t get how to locate the bushing in the bore when installing. As the two halves are separated vertically I always put the bearing halves around the stub of the crankshaft and would then have to align the bushing to the pin while lowering the CS? Or do I (again) see more problems than there are? Embarassed

Just wondering.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  Steve Traill Fri 21 May 2021, 9:50 am

I fitted the locating pin dead centre at the bottom of the bearing housing, then just drill or file a notch so the two halves of the bearing locate around it. It's not going anywhere then.
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Post  elwood-59 Fri 21 May 2021, 10:09 am

Hmmm,

I was thinking about drilling the bearing cup, easier to locate the centre and much easier to fit under the drill press Very Happy But yes, that makes sense, enough material there for the pin to fit into.

Thanks

Elwood

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Post  elwood-59 Fri 21 May 2021, 11:59 am

Hi,

just drilled a 2mm hole into the bearing housing, now I have to find a appropriate pin, I think about using a spring dowel pin, as I have a 2 x 12 mm which would fist exactly.

Unfortunately Government just laid out plans for today so I have to quit on PIED PIPER, only enough time for this.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  lynnr Fri 21 May 2021, 6:50 pm

My bearing halves have not moved in 10 years with nothing extra.
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Post  elwood-59 Fri 21 May 2021, 7:08 pm

Hi Lynn,

mine have. I remember making double sure the oil holes are at top when I fitted the bearing cap as it had turned when I was lapping in the crankshaft. At this time I put a strip of paper under the bushing which, at that moment, stopped the bushing from rotationg. Only now after some running it has rotated.

Hole is drilled, tomorrow I will put in a spring dowel pin, extra long, so I can trim the extra length. I only have 12 and 25 mm long pins, the shorter one might just „disappear“ into the bore. Smile

Thanks

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  elwood-59 Fri 28 May 2021, 4:09 pm

Update:
Installed the shims under the RH bushing. After much thought I added a spring dowel pin into one of the lubrication holes in the LH bearing cup. This way I don't have to fiddle with any extra holes in the bushing, still the busing cannot turn. As the pin is hollow there is no real restiction for the oil passing through.
With everyting back together, there is a noticable gear backlash now in all three gears.

Final test will be during next driving.

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  elwood-59 Sun 30 May 2021, 4:15 pm

Final testing under steam done today.
shifting is much improved, but, while driving in 2nd gear, there still is a noise, much less than before but still there. and it seems like the 2nd gear gear wheel on intermediate shaft is slightly out of round as the noise changes with the shaft turning. Will have to have another look at it at a later date, like winter. For now I continue to use first gear only. Shocked

Could not get 3rd gear to mesh completely, looks like I have to have another look at the lever.Embarassed

When cold, all three shifted easily but now when warm/hot, it‘s a lot harder I think. More to brood over.Question

Cheers

Elwood
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Post  Steve Traill Mon 05 Jul 2021, 9:57 pm

Did you take the sharp edges off the gear teeth, that helps! Also if you are still getting a noise in middle wheel then the total alignment isn't quite there yet. A couple more shims should do it & I expect the high wheel gear selection will be better too.
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Post  elwood-59 Mon 05 Jul 2021, 11:23 pm

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your comments.

Yes. I did - maybe not enough, but I did round the teeth off.

And yes, I also assume I should have added more shims. While the crankshaft was still "loose" I test fitted it with some shims and later added some more (4 shims of beer can tin right now). At this moment it seemed ok, easy to shift.

Only after refitting everything I noticed on the test drive there still is a noise in second gear, better than before but still there. In the beginning I had a constant noise, after the rework it only twice during each revolution of the gear cluster (migjt be a tad out of round), enough to be annoying but not enough to make me take it apart again just now. I plan to have the motion and other parts nickel plated during the winter time, so most of the crankshaft will have to come out again anyways, Until then I can truddle along in first.

Cheers

Elwood
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