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Post  lynnr on Thu 04 Apr 2019, 10:32 pm

Hi all

I am starting to plan some more “instructional” videos this year.
What would people like to see?

lynnr
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Post  Midwest Steam on Thu 04 Apr 2019, 11:08 pm

I have a few ideas, being new to steam I would like to see;

1. Starting up (which you done already)

2. Basics of operating the engine (ie. what the controls do and how to maintain the fire and taking the engine on the road...possibly)

3. Common problems that could occur and how to fix it

4. How to shut down/clean the engine at the end of the day
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Post  parador on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 9:31 am

How about a video on setting-up the valve timing?

Regards
Martin

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Post  Capricorn1 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 1:14 pm

Midwest Steam wrote:I have a few ideas, being new to steam I would like to see;

1. Starting up (which you done already)

2. Basics of operating the engine (ie. what the controls do and how to maintain the fire and taking the engine on the road...possibly)

3. Common problems that could occur and how to fix it

4. How to shut down/clean the engine at the end of the day


Have a look on the internet / eBay and get hold of a copy of "The Modern Manual for Drivers of Steam Road Vehicles" By W. Michael Salmon.
Written for the drivers of full size engines but all the principles apply.

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Post  sonick45 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 5:44 pm

The Modern Manual for Drivers of Steam Road Vehicles" By W. Michael Salmon.

Very good reference book but ( excuse the expression ) a dummies guide to firing and operating a traction engine would be very useful along side thisk to show full operation and handling of a STW engine.

What i would also add is if you are new to steam and you don't know what the controls do i would seriously consider joining a local steam club even if its a model railway club as you wouldn't get in a car without knowing where the accelerator and brake are and drive it without someone next to you who knows what they are doing.

a steam engine out of control is a very scary thing and at full operating pressure rather dangerous..

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Post  Capricorn1 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 6:31 pm

We all start out as novices at some point but I'm not sure where you would get a dummies guide to operating a machine such as a steam traction engine that has many variables and is as has been stated potentially dangerous...?

The book mentioned was written in a different age, it is simple, clear and concise.

I would also recommend a complete novice to joint their local steam and or model engineering club, go to rallies and talk to owners.

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Post  Midwest Steam on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 8:03 pm

I’ll have to look for that book pretty soon. Unfortunately in my situation steam clubs and rallies are far and few between, even if I find one I don’t have the time to get involved. I know a bit more about steam than I let on, it’s nice to hear and see the way others steam up. Tutorial videos like these are great since they’re specific to our engines, each engine has different characteristics that affect the way they steam. Having said that I use them as a general guideline and not a definitive how to. Another good guideline I’ve discovered some time ago is on the National Traction Engine Trust, haven’t had time to read it either but there’s gonna be good advice listed.

Correctly me if I wrong, but I’m under the impression that Steam Traction World have designed these kits to be build and fires by just about anyone from a professional to a novice
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Post  sonick45 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 9:43 pm

The dummies guide I mentioned was around the great videos Lynn has produced and creating more in the future to assist those who are new to steam and wish to get involved. I think its a great idea.

Your right in saying we were all novices once but with the advent of self build kits and an accessible online market for traction engines it is ever more important that owners are responsible and apply common sense when lighting a fire in one.

I have recently seen first hand this scenario play out hence my tone. A 3" was bought as a "toy" and the owner had no prior knowledge of fire/water management or checking for signs of requiring action. The plug dropped with a full fire and not enough water to fully put in out. The fire was eventually put out with a bucket. The glass was giving a false reading and hadn't been checked which unless you have been shown how to check wouldn't know when or why. The book mentioned covers this aspect.

your impression that Steam Traction World have designed these kits to be built and fired by just about anyone from a professional to a novice are entirely correct. What is left to the builder is have the correct amount of knowledge or assistance to learn how to operate one.

This is why Lynn's idea is such a good one as I think its important that the right level of assistance is readily available to anyone who wants to have a go.




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Post  Midwest Steam on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 10:52 pm

It would be irresponsible to light a fire and try to raise steam without prior knowledge. Seen there are a few places that offer a crash course on driving and general steaming of a (full size) traction engine. That would be enough of an excuse to plan another holiday to the UK, any recommendations on which one to take.
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Post  Will@STW on Wed 01 May 2019, 9:56 am

Midwest Steam wrote:any recommendations on which one to take.

I would say that the National Traction Engine Trusts driver training course would probably be a great start. I can't remember the exact dates off the top of my head. But experienced engine owners take their full size engines to the event and give talks on safety and how things work, and show you how to get on with the engines. Some of the principles will be slightly different between miniatures and full size, as an obvious example you will want to be careful on your engines not to put too much coal on. But it would be a very good starting point for you. And yes we do try to design the engines so that anyone can build them. And we normally provide a full set of steaming instructions towards the end of the build, with all sorts of helpful tips from lighting up to cook your dinner in the smokebox. However I must urge everyone to take every precaution possible when they first raise steam on an engine. Whilst we may refer to these machines as big boys toys, they can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands, and almost every engine will behave differently. Furthermore we can only design these machines to be user friendly to a point, unfortunately the nature of these beasts is that they can only be redesigned to a point, and the only true teacher is to gain experience. So yes the idea of Lynn making some tutorial videos on how to steam the engine and drive the engine would be brilliant, as would reading the books and documents mentioned in earlier comments, however, it would still always be best to have someone experienced with you at the start.

Thanks

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Post  Capricorn1 on Wed 01 May 2019, 10:04 am

The STW engines can be built / assembled with limited resources and skills, I wouldn't say however they are specifically designed with that in mind, parts may be simplified for ease of production and to keep manufacturing costs to a reasonable level - otherwise then engines wouldn't sell.

There are various routes to take to end up with an engine sat on the lawn, buy the kits and build yourself, pay someone else to assemble the engine, or buy a 2nd hand engine.

However irrespective whether the engine is a STW kit build or a "scratch built" engine, being either a Burrell, Fowler or Foster the basic principles of operation and controls are the same, there are no short cuts to take when steaming a 4" engine just because it is a STW one, they all require the same level of understanding, skill and attention, and pose the same risks even when operated under the guidance of an "expert".


I have also seen the aftermath of a novice on a full size Aveling & Porter steam roller, the owner didn't even understand why there were several notches on the reversing quadrant. I'm not quite sure how he even managed to get along the road with it.

However he and a friend were on their way to a rally in Sheffield in the mid 1980's, at the top of a gentle slope the driver was struggling to get water into the boiler via the injector so he stopped and put a chock under one of the rear rolls, took the engine out of gear then ran the engine to use the water pump... the roller being a single cylinder machine began rocking to and fro, the chock worked it way out from under the roll and the roller started away down the hill because the driver didn't apply the brake...

The roller was towing a living van on iron wheels in which the owners young children usually rode.... fortunately on this day they were at school.

The roller travelled about 100 yards gathering speed until it reached a small roundabout and hit the kerb the living van tipped over twisting the A frame and the roof and sides were completely sheared off as it hit a lamp post in the process, the roller continued across the road for another 30 yards or so narrowly missing a car coming the other way.

It hit the kerb again and broke the front forks off, the two front rolls broke away with the remains of the forks and steering chains and disappeared into a hawthorn hedge, leaving the roller sat against the kerb with the smokebox resting on the floor, and large sections of tyre broken from both rear rolls....

I'm not sure why anyone would buy an engine with no knowledge or without even limited experience of a steam traction engine and then not be able to join a local club or visit shows and talk to other owners, how would that person hope to learn and gain a sensible understanding of what they have bought.
Some people do see them as toys, even full size engines are regarded as such, having said that it's a free world.



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Post  Midwest Steam on Wed 01 May 2019, 12:05 pm

Capricorn1 wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would buy an engine with no knowledge or without even limited experience of a steam traction engine and then not be able to join a local club or visit shows and talk to other owners, how would that person hope to learn and gain a sensible understanding of what they have bought.

Here’s why, because here in the USA not only is Steam a dying art...it’s extinct. I could count on one hand the number of operational steam locomotives that run on the mainline, traction engines here are never seen. There are shows (rallies) that do take place but it seems the majority of traction engines are on static display or on a belt running a thresher. They only time the general public get to see or experience anything steam powered is the train rides at zoos or amusement parks. I don’t have the luxury of joining a club since they don’t exist in my area, if they did I couldn’t dedicate any time to get involved because of my work schedule (on call 24/7 365 with no set days off).

I am fully aware how dangerous these engines can be, which is why I’ve planned on attending a few more rallies and wanting to the courses ran by the National Traction Engine Trust. Last thing I’ll say is I’ve been around farm equipment since I was a young kid, in college I was taking classes to be a machinist while at the same time working for an airline full time, and now I work for a railway. All those places have an emphasis on safety, so I won’t be putting myself in a dangerous situation anytime soon.

Good thing I didn’t join this forum to make friends...geez
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Post  Will@STW on Wed 01 May 2019, 12:29 pm

Capricorn1 wrote:The STW engines can be built / assembled with limited resources and skills, I wouldn't say however they are specifically designed with that in mind, parts may be simplified for ease of production and to keep manufacturing costs to a reasonable level - otherwise then engines wouldn't sell.

There are various routes to take to end up with an engine sat on the lawn, buy the kits and build yourself, pay someone else to assemble the engine, or buy a 2nd hand engine.

However irrespective whether the engine is a STW kit build or a "scratch built" engine, being either a Burrell, Fowler or Foster the basic principles of operation and controls are the same, there are no short cuts to take when steaming a 4" engine just because it is a STW one, they all require the same level of understanding, skill and attention, and pose the same risks even when operated under the guidance of an "expert".


I have also seen the aftermath of a novice on a full size Aveling & Porter steam roller, the owner didn't even understand why there were several notches on the reversing quadrant. I'm not quite sure how he even managed to get along the road with it.

However he and a friend were on their way to a rally in Sheffield in the mid 1980's, at the top of a gentle slope the driver was struggling to get water into the boiler via the injector so he stopped and put a chock under one of the rear rolls, took the engine out of gear then ran the engine to use the water pump... the roller being a single cylinder machine began rocking to and fro,  the chock worked it way out from under the roll and the roller started away down the hill because the driver didn't apply the brake...

The roller was towing a living van on iron wheels in which the owners young children usually rode.... fortunately on this day they were at school.

The roller travelled about 100 yards gathering speed until it reached a small roundabout and hit the kerb the living van tipped over twisting the A frame and the roof and sides were completely sheared off as it hit a lamp post in the process, the roller continued across the road for another 30 yards or so narrowly missing a car coming the other way.

It hit the kerb again and broke the front forks off, the two front rolls broke away with the remains of the forks and steering chains and disappeared into a hawthorn hedge, leaving the roller sat against the kerb with the smokebox resting on the floor, and large sections of tyre broken from both rear rolls....

I'm not sure why anyone would buy an engine with no knowledge or without even limited experience of a steam traction engine and then not be able to join a local club or visit shows and talk to other owners, how would that person hope to learn and gain a sensible understanding of what they have bought.
Some people do see them as toys, even full size engines are regarded as such, having said that it's a free world.



I agree, I wouldn't buy an engine without some knowledge of how to run engines. But the point of having someone with more experience is that they will not panic as much and should know better how to solve the problem and can therefore take control.

Not all engines are the same, even though the basic principles are indeed the same. For example my parents have a Marshall road roller, and to open the regulator, you pull the handle towards you, and on our models you have to push it away from you. The first time I went on an STW I kept making the mistake of thinking I was on the Marshall and kept taking off! I had some knowledge of engines, but having someone there to help me with issues like that helped a great deal. There are of course other controls that are different that took some getting used to, the water pump, the gear changer, the injector, the water lifter, the list goes on. I admit I do see the Marshall as a toy at times, but one that must be treated with the greatest level of respect!

As for your friend with the Aveling roller, there is no way anyone I know would take an engine out of gear without putting the brake on first, never mind the fact that it is a roller on the road (slippery steel wheels on a slippery surface), and also on a hill!! Such action is asking for trouble, and if a more experienced engine-man had been there, I'm sure they would have stopped him and said "have you put your brake on?" I certainly would have done if I was there.

People need to go out and gain experience, either by trying to steam the engine (with someone experienced being there to supervise and take control should things start to go wrong), or by going out and talking to people on the rallyfields and so on. These videos would not be a shortcut, it would effectively be a beginners guide to using the engines. Obviously I would suggest that it would be best to have warnings on the videos stating that they are just beginners guides, and that watching them doesn't mean that you know everything about the engines. It is the same for the book, I would recommend reading it, but it doesn't mean that having read that particular book, you know everything about driving the engines. Experience is always the best teacher, and I would recommend that people with new engines don't chose one of these methods and ignore the others. The best thing would be to do all of them (leaving those that involve steaming until much later).

Midwest Steam wrote:Here’s why, because here in the USA not only is Steam a dying art...it’s extinct. I could count on one hand the number of operational steam locomotives that run on the mainline, traction engines here are never seen. There are shows (rallies) that do take place but it seems the majority of traction engines are on static display or on a belt running a thresher. They only time the general public get to see or experience anything steam powered is the train rides at zoos or amusement parks. I don’t have the luxury of joining a club since they don’t exist in my area, if they did I couldn’t dedicate any time to get involved because of my work schedule (on call 24/7 365 with no set days off).

I am fully aware how dangerous these engines can be, which is why I’ve planned on attending a few more rallies and wanting to the courses ran by the National Traction Engine Trust. Last thing I’ll say is I’ve been around farm equipment since I was a young kid, in college I was taking classes to be a machinist while at the same time working for an airline full time, and now I work for a railway. All those places have an emphasis on safety, so I won’t be putting myself in a dangerous situation anytime soon.

Good thing I didn’t join this forum to make friends...geez


Please do come to the UK and maybe visit us at STW sometime, we would be more than happy to offer our help and advice, and there are a large number of rallies in the summer that you can attend where the engine owners are knowledgeable and friendly, there are some novices too, but they will have experiences that they can share with you as well. I know someone who came into possession of another Marshall roller who made some very bad mistakes and will know not forget what he did wrong. If you get the chance, try to time a visit with the Great Dorset Steam Fair, you will not see that many experienced engine-men in one place anywhere else, and all would be more than happy to talk to you about their engines and their adventures.

Thanks

Will@STW

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Post  Capricorn1 on Wed 01 May 2019, 12:40 pm

Midwest Steam,

None of my comments were aim at yourself, so apologies for any offence.

The UK's environment agency has plans afoot to curtail the burning of coal and wet wood, the entire steam preservation movement depends on the imports of domestic coal for it's supply, so unless we as a movement can convince them we do not "pollute for fun", we may end up in the same situation as yourself the USA.

Will's suggestion of attending the NTET's driver training days is a very good one, learn from those with plenty of sound experience, it's unfortunate they are across the Atlantic from yourself.




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Post  Midwest Steam on Wed 01 May 2019, 12:55 pm

Will,

I was at the Dorset Steam Fair last year and it was a great experience. I only had one day to attend the show as I wanted to visit other places as well. My main objective was to photograph as many engines as I could to get ideas how to paint and line my engine, granted I’m not a great photographer but I must’ve taken a couple of hundred photographs on that one day alone. Did get to meet both Steve and Dean and chat for a short time which was nice. I have planned on making a trip to the factory but it probably won’t be this year, gonna spend my vacation days in the garage turning wrenches and spraying paint.
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Post  Will@STW on Wed 01 May 2019, 1:04 pm

Midwest Steam

Please do come and visit the factory at some point you will be more than welcome, even if it is a year or more away. I would recommend coming and talking to people over here in the UK, as I said people would be more than happy to help and advise, and the NTET driver training course would be a very good way of you learning the basics, and again I would certainly recommend it.

Thanks

Will@STW

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Post  Midwest Steam on Wed 01 May 2019, 1:06 pm

Capricorn1 wrote:Midwest Steam,

None of my comments were aim at yourself, so apologies for any offence.

The UK's environment agency has plans afoot to curtail the burning of coal and wet wood, the entire steam preservation movement depends on the imports of domestic coal for it's supply, so unless we as a movement can convince them we do not "pollute for fun", we may end up in the same situation as yourself the USA.

Will's suggestion of attending the NTET's driver training days is a very good one, learn from those with plenty of sound experience, it's unfortunate they are across the Atlantic from yourself.


Forgive and forget is what I always say. Leave it to the government the spoil everybody’s fun, there’s probably bigger issues at hand but heaven forbid if someone burns coal in a traction engine! I won’t get into politics, wouldn’t want to start any heated debates
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Post  Midwest Steam on Wed 01 May 2019, 1:34 pm

Will@STW wrote:Midwest Steam

Please do come and visit the factory at some point you will be more than welcome, even if it is a year or more away. I would recommend coming and talking to people over here in the UK, as I said people would be more than happy to help and advise, and the NTET driver training course would be a very good way of you learning the basics, and again I would certainly recommend it.

Thanks

Will@STW

There will be a visit planned at some point, I like booking flights and hotels (or B&Bs) well in advance. I’m a bit of a cheapskate in that sense.
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Post  LiveSteam on Thu 02 May 2019, 7:17 pm

Scares the willy's out of me some of the things I've seen posted on BookFace Shocked you get a random photo of part of an engine and someone asking what are these for and do I need to leave them open or closed.
The photo was of some cylinder drain cocks which didnt appear to have any connecting rods fitted Neutral

It worries me folks are buying stuff and have very knowledge of what they are getting into, while I realise we all had to start somewhere surely you do your research before even thinking about making a purchase let alone actually firing something.

My fear is one of these cheque book engineers is going to do some serious damage to our hobby by doing something daft and either hurting themselves or someone else or worse Crying or Very sad

I classify myself as a cheque book engineer Embarassed but before I even looked at buying an engine I spent many evenings reading the code of practice on the NTET site http://www.ntet.co.uk/owners-drivers/code-of-practice/ which while its aimed at full size 99% applies to models. I then went on to spoke to many folks at shows, but some of these folks obviously have no idea what they are doing and it really is a worry Neutral

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Post  Steve Traill on Thu 02 May 2019, 10:57 pm

With my boiler inspectors hat on I would say that the STW engines (along with all commercially built boilers today) are very safe and over engineered for safety. They also have a fuseable plug so if you do run out of water then the plug will go and the fire will be out pretty quickly. Yes they do get hot and you could burn yourself and yes they have lots of spinning parts that could take skin off. A healthy dose of common sense will protect you from most of these problems. At the last boiler inspectors seminar we were advised that there has never been a case of a miniature engine 'blowing up' as some of the full size did years ago. Treat it with respect, learn all you can & don't run before you can walk and you will enjoy a great hobby with a great bunch of likeminded people.
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Post  Midwest Steam on Sat 04 May 2019, 9:16 pm

Steve Traill wrote: Treat it with respect, learn all you can & don't run before you can walk and you will enjoy a great hobby with a great bunch of likeminded people.

I would agree with that, take it slow and not try to rush anything. The biggest thing that ruins a hobby is when folks put you down just because you don’t have an expansive knowledge of steam before hand. Well sorry guys I didn't have 5 years of before starting this build, trying to gain the experience is extremely difficult where I’m at. Perhaps I should just sell now to keep people from worrying that someone inexperienced might have a go at firing an engine
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Post  sonick45 on Sat 04 May 2019, 10:01 pm

I do feel partly responsible for pushing this thread off from its original intentions of discussing instructional videos.

If I was a new owner with no prior steam traction experience I would want all the help I could muster and for some online videos is the best option.

Informative and instructional videos I think are an excellent idea and should be primarily for those that want to understand by means of watching someone else first, the ways of running a traction engine.

Steve Baldock did amazing things for our cause.  He opened up the world of steam traction to the masses. Some were reluctant to embrace the methods, some still are, but many have seen what fine models they make and nod their heads to the fine work the factory produces when seen out on the rally field...

I will say that most on here are a very supportive bunch and will answer any queries you have without prejudice.

I for one would be more than happy to help anyone on here that wants someone looking over their shoulder the first couple of steamings.   If anyone reading this fancies the idea just let me know. I would be prepared to travel a short distance if travel costs were covered from the Bedford area.

I'm afraid MIDWEST your a little to far away... !!

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Post  Midwest Steam on Sat 04 May 2019, 10:26 pm

sonick45 wrote:I'm afraid MIDWEST your a little to far away... !!

No doubt about that! lol!
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Post  Mark the spark on Sun 05 May 2019, 11:55 am

Without dout the best way to learn is to watch and help someone who has done it before . You can learn from there experience and ask questions also there are NO stupid questions if you don't know

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Post  T140 on Mon 06 May 2019, 9:51 am

Lynn,

Sorry but I seem to have missed your videos, which I would like to see, I have seen your antics on Youtube though!

Where may I find the instructional videos please?

I'm still building mine, just not enough time in a day, however I'm retiring early at the end of the month so hopefully get the engine finished during the next few months, at last!

Thanks.

Richard

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